Doubt they'd be CNC machined that would be very very expensive. Most likely either cast or folded and welded.

Never can tell in China.

CNC is pretty cheap there.


Can't wait to see.

Still hard to think of resin gun parts with a metal shroud for me.

Even if it was 'cost effective' enough to stamp out PRs at this price point, I would imagine that he finished piece would be ridiculously heavy. Just based on what little I know about CNC work, in order for shrouds to be tooled as such, they would have to resemble the '05 MIM resin shrouds. Get any thinner than this and run the risk of materials collapsing in the process of tooling.

I'm just guessing that there are several here that already know that I like to tool around on automobiles in my free time. I've purchased a lot of OEM and after market parts that were essentially cast aluminum. (or at least, what I understand cast aluminum to be) These parts are mass produced and purchased in bulk by an array of automotive repair parts retailers. Some are made in china and aren't cheap. ...and those are ridiculously heavy too. (in terms of what shrouds would be like)

Stamped and folded Aluminum is the only thing that seems reasonable for a production like this. At least to me, the dies, plugs, and related equipment would be worth a pretty penny to another company willing to make 'replacement' parts...

Dunno... half the time, I don't know what I'm talking about, anyway.

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Tom

Definitely not CNC .. it would cost what they are charging if it were.

You're right about the resin underneath metalic(ish perhaps ?) shrouds .. sorta hard to connect the two conceptually.

It doesn't cost much per unit to get those parts stamped out, though you can't use aluminum sheets exactly like the SU shrouds were handmade out of, becuz the pressure from the tooling would break through the aluminum especially in the corners. You'd have to use aluminum alloy and the sheets would have to be thicker than the hand pounded sheets. This would make the end product about 2lbs per set driving up material costs and shipping costs. And it's not the per unit cost. It's the minimum. 1,000 units would be a laugher at any factory in the world, not just China. The factory would have to say, fine, you only need a 1,000 pieces but we have to charge you for 10,000 or 100,000 pieces. So it's not a simplex problem to solve to come up with the proper speck component then assemble it into a final product.

There's an old adage in China that says 'you don't know what medicine is being sold until you get to the bottom of the "hu lu"', where the hu lu was a dried out calabash commonly used in ancient China as a ready-made bottle for liquids such as wines or brewed herbal medicine. Can't wait to see for me as well.

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Real aluminum!

You should see the cost of the molds

Mark



this is a quote from hollywood collectibles on the rpf

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Epic Atleast thats one thing off everyones minds. So I'm assuming cast aluminum then.

I figured they'd have to be cast. Even stamping would get expensive to make the tooling for, though this would be the BEST way to do it and make them almost exactly like the originals. People thinking they would be CNC machined were out of their minds.

Maybe they're Mac users? It amazes me that Apple is able to do it while maintaining their wallet-raping 50% profit margin, even with the economies of scale on their side.

haha I REALLY hope this isn't going to become a Mac vs. PC price debate... it could get ugly

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I have not failed... I have succeeded in finding what DOESN'T work

Hey, my main computer is currently one of Steve Jobs' overpriced wonders, and I'm strongly considering replacing it with another quite soon!

Good point. But, I bet those notebook panels are stamped and folded first. The tooling part is only for finishing detail. It is not like each were cut from a solid block. That would be way too labor intensive and expensive.

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Tom

Nope. Milled from the slab. Seriously - I was amazed too. There was a video on the Apple site when they introduced it.

I do this stuff everyday, so I think I know what I'm talking about.

Not going to post again until picts of an opened rifle show up.

I don't want to offend anyone.



Still. The rifle will be a nice replica regardless.

I'm seriously confused by the above text. Is it possible to offend people with what ever method of construction the shrouds may or may not be made by?

Personally, with only the roughest knowledge of the subject, I think it's absurd that the shrouds would be CNC'd aluminium. My point is: This is a discussion, not an argument.

I get tooling pices for injection molded parts from China all the time.

Just saying it is do-able, but really wouldn't be a smart option margin-wise.

My instinct says sand casting.


Will be impressed if I see butt welded seams inside an open shroud.

The HCG guy saying "you should see the cost of the molds" implies die casting rather than sand to me, cos making a steel die mold can be mucho spendy.

SAS

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Alan T. Alien
1st Lt Smith, SA "Sidewinder"
A13/TQ1.4.19720EX CMA
Founder of UKCM 13th Regt. 1st Batt. Freebooters
Founder of Special Armaments Section (Heavy Weapons)
"People don't understand. people like me"

MAA tried getting these done a while back, and the CNC milling costs were quite expensive.
I really doubt these are milled out of block AL.

@Noble: Injection moulding Isn't CNCing.

I know you said that about the tooling moulds and not the actual item. Doing a set of moulds for injection moulding is
quite diffferent than say contracting the CNC work for 1000 shrouds. I can't imagine the cost for something like that!

Let's just say "I'm" not picking up the price tag for that work.

Russ

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"A writer needs a pen, a painter a brush, and a filmmaker an army." - Orson Wells.

http://www.rookscastle.com
http://www.alchemyarms.com

I was talking about the tool involved in injection molding.

CNCing going on + a lot of other things.

So, are we all in agreement that these are most likely going to be cast aluminum shrouds?

Makes a brudda wonder why the lower end of 'frames' are so expensive.

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Tom

See .. this is why I refer to the old adage. There's another saying to describe the situation in Chinese .. which is to say -- one's head is en-shrouded (no pun) by a cloud of mist. When you try to guess at which production method, if you had a chance to study each method, you still come up with advantage/disadvantage -- when you sand cast, the casted result leaves rough pits from the sand which has to be machined away, or hand-polished though I can't imagine that -- thereby increasing your cost once again.

Whether you use investment cast, sand cast, die cast -- the thickness of the aluminum alloy (not pure aluminum) must be greater than the 1.55mm the hand-pounded aluminum sheets were estimated to be. Factory recommendation was 2.5mm to 3.0mm, which would have doubled or almost doubled the weight and material cost of the components.

This is so typical of hand-made prototyping so to speak for the screen-used originals to mass production consideration, which I would imagine happens all the time in manufacturing, that constraints of materials and manufacturing methods go to affect the final product.

As said, it is not a simplex problem to solve.

The thing that gets me wondering my friends is this -- it is unheard of that we should still be debating and guessing at the final product. Sure, quotes have been referred to that real aluminum is expected. AFAIK, ground-up aluminum powder still qualifies as real aluminum. When you go to the ordering screen, there's no listed specification for what you're ordering. For me it would have been as easy as apple pie to list out what you are building and selling for the price, down to the individual bolts and washers literally e.g. via an exploded diagram of parts. A photograph of the product in development. Parts being assembled. SD did that with theirs, step-by-step. This woud have been typically expected in any mechanical product. Another example that came up in an earlier post -- a laptop. If it had CNC aluminum bezels, the specks would have said that. The specks would be press released then repeated on-line. There would no doubt about what all you get for what you pay. A Picture would have told a thousand words, and aluminum parts photograph well via the lighting reflecting off of the material.

Finally, it still comes down to when the product arrives, then you'll know. I hope it is as promised though, becuz that's what everyone wants. I have a set of aluminum resin SU casted PR shrouds already. What I need are the aluminum ones like the next collector. We'll see.

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And thanks.... I hate it when people make such good sense about things I am concerned about. I had almost convinced myself there was no way these were CC and now... your post has me concerned again. As you aptly pointed out, it almost feels like the "details" which were posted were purposefully obscure and while I am very thankful for Matsuo's involvement, the fact that his guns include CC shrouds only make me more concerned. I would think HCG knows about these concerns... so my question is why are they not being addressed in a straightforward manner? I think I am going to track them down on the RPF if they are responding there and confront them about this... see if you can get a straight answer.

Keep in mind that I said I was being shrouded by a cloud of mist becuz -- I don't know what the exact final product is going to be, although I have heard from the onset that the shrouds are to be aluminum. It is unfortunate this wasn't made clearer, as aluminum resin (aluminum powder mixed in with resin) is also made with "real aluminum". And that's what I understand had been quoted. I also am un-aware whether there have been photographs released of prototypes, of the shourds themselves, inside out. I've read this thread and didn't see any. Hence I don't know, and don't believe I will know until the product ships and collectors get them in their hands. As Matt says, it will be a nice product whatever the material of the shrouds be, and everyone wants and hopes for aluminum when it comes to the shrouds themselves as in the metallic, shiney, cold-to-the-touch, and resonates pings when you tap it .. that material.

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I have posted on the RPF asking for a better explanation because if it is cold cast aluminum/resin... well... I already have a totally awesome PR with cold cast shrouds and our only motivation for purchasing the HCG PR was the implication of real aluminum shrouds. As I said before, I would LOVE nothing more than to be wrong, but I am still very concerned about this and will NOT be satisfied if these are just CC.

Here is the thread on the RPF regarding the PR which now includes my question:

http://www.therpf.com/showthread.php?p=1014628#post1014628

I'm pretty sure that after all the anticipation, and glee at the announcement, if the shroud was merely resin w/ aluminium powder mixed in, Matsuo would have told us.
I'm confident it will be Proper Metal

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