I have been a bit torn on bringing attention to this as the source took some umbrage with me and tried to paint me as "wrong about everything" (when in fact it was a minor quibble based on a misheard comment) but hey, lets move along and be adults here! There is some pretty interesting conversation to have with this man's info and it would be a shame for it to disappear into the abyss of facebook.

He says he worked at Bapty for 30 years has been very active on facebook lately (primarily the "USS Sulaco Colonial Marines" and "m41a pulse rifle builders" groups). If you head over there I am sure you can't miss him.

"New" or potentially scandalous info includes:
-He says only 4 'practical'/live fire rifles were made.
-He says 2 of them actually had working 870 shotguns in the GL (the 10-hole that everyone knows, and one of the 8 holes).
He elaborates that both live GL's had the front end style we currently know as the "10 hole" front end, even though one was on an 8.
-He says they were NOT brown bess. He says they were German ww2 era colors primarily "braungrau"

"Fun facts" (not really ground breaking but cool to know):
-He says the original stocks were not locking in multiple positions. They were just free sliding. (meaning my laziness in not doing a locking stock was screen accurate! hooray).
-He says only 1 was left in tact after filming, rest were disassembled.
-He says the "Tech manual" rifle (with natural wood handle) was built using a french knock-off shotgun in the grenade launcher well after the fact.
-He says "2 or 3 more" were built from a combo of new and old parts for Alien 3 (all jives, not really new info but should be more known that it is because modern surviving rifles are NOT good references for screen accuracy! Pet peeve of mine is seeing those pop riveted plates and welded on vents. Gross!!!).
-He had a cool pic of Hicks' Ithaca with the folding stock of the MP40 still attached to the grip. It was pretty neat. I wonder what happened where they decided to take it off.
-There were only the 2 smartguns and really only 2 "muzzles". When they did the sentry gun scenes they took the muzzles off the smart guns to put on the MG42s in the sentry guns.

Interesting… what’s the chaps name?

If the stocks were free sliding, how come they didn’t create problems when the pulse rifles were slung? Surely they’d just pull out to full extension? Or fall out?

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A02/TQ2.0.52141E1

"Errr... Roger that's a 2-1-6..."

So many, many years ago while working with a prop maker and effects technician on a restoration (I can't remember what now, possibly a sentinel from The Matrix) I learned that a paint company in London made the paint for Aliens. They had, on their records, a mix 'recipe' for a colour called 'Aliens Brown'. We asked them to make some up for us but it turned out a bit darker than I've seen original props painted. This is a restored, original Pulse Rifle that's painted that colour:


Now I have no idea why it's different, but that's what we got at the time.

Hope this helps,

Harry

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http://www.facebook.com/TheHHACA - @TheHHACA

it's at times like these that i'm glad i'm colour blind

Even though I wasn't around in existence back then... I have a LOT of points of contention with his "info"... Some may be genuine but I seriously doubt the validity he claims of a few things.

I can guarantee using simple logic that a live fire pulse rifle never made its way to the Pentagon to be studied as a viable weapon... There's literally nothing revolutionary about a 1940s American made Thompson and a regular 870 pump action shotgun hacked down and bolted under it that the US hasn't considered... Anything revolutionary about the pulse rifle is simply movie magic.

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Lt. Melissa L. Klassen, ALG
AL Colonial Admin. - Executive Officer (XO) -- 2021-2022
RCCM | Royal Canadian Colonial Marines - Commanding Officer (CO) -- 2021-2022

Read the AL Charter Rules & Regulations: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1i3gd9QUyIqI_6rfk8kpxspbKU-JT4MBAjLPxfCkvGJ8

Ha, yeah he did say the 10-hole hero was shipped off to the "US Military" as part of the OICW project. Very wild if true (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objective ... bat_Weapon).

Also the more I think about the 'only 4 were made' claim, the more I am not so convinced that can be true either. I mean, the back ends from the practical and stunt rifles are VERY different. This photo appears to show at least 5 practical rifles just chilling in the weapon rack. The stunts didn't have the steel between two shroud halves behind the grip and at least 5 in this photo do. Apone's padded sling is even visible right there, so that one is quite possibly the 10-hole.



Also there are more than 4 claimed 'surviving' (altered/reassembled) rifles in circulation today.... even without the 'Government commandeered' one on the list, Willie has them pretty well documented at 8. I do believe there is a possibility that at least one of the rifles on Willie's site may be duplicated (photographed in either improved or worsened condition years apart, so possibly confused as a 'new/separate' rifle), but there could be as many as 7 with original parts floating out there.

http://www.alienscollection.com/pulseri ... 1BbAPmANeU

Not forgetting he recently suggested the stunt rifle sold at auction was NOT screen used but likely one of the copies he made, just to turn around and say it WAS screen used after it sold for $106,000+

That rifle was definitely screen used. He argued with me that it wasn't lol

_________________
Lt. Melissa L. Klassen, ALG
AL Colonial Admin. - Executive Officer (XO) -- 2021-2022
RCCM | Royal Canadian Colonial Marines - Commanding Officer (CO) -- 2021-2022

Read the AL Charter Rules & Regulations: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1i3gd9QUyIqI_6rfk8kpxspbKU-JT4MBAjLPxfCkvGJ8

I had some involvement with the contractors working on the OICW project.

While we all saw the similarities between the PR and the Morita, there was never any technical review of the movie guns as part of the project. The roots of the hybrid rifle/anti-materiel platform goes back to the Special Purpose Individual Weapon (SPIW) program from the 1950s.

The timeline here doesn't work either. The OICW project didn't get started until the mid 1990s, over 10 years after the PR was "invented."

As Moosh pointed out, the PR prop was hardly revolutionary from a weapons design standpoint.

Sort of reminds me of the stories about the M16 being designed/built by Mattel Toys.

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Sci-Firepower Prop Collection:
https://www.facebook.com/scifirepower/

If they are anything like mine, then they can't really fall out entirely because there is a screw and washer with dual slots cut into the stock to keep it in line, it just has about 7 or 8 inches of travel till it hits the back.... if that makes sense.


As for slinging it, the fit on mine is snug enough it doesn't slide around much, especially if you have the business end pointed up most of the tension keeps the stock in the closed position, but I have never had it slung for extended periods of time.

This

Funny when he mentions "Nobody around today is alive anymore to confirm" (except him, of course!)

To be honest, he's taken huge liberties with details and events and inserted himself in a much larger role than what he really was at that time and rides on manufactured fame and feeds on the excitement and envy of those who believe him. It's evident by every comment he makes such as "I'm an armourer at Bapty on and off for 30 years!", "I have/had a real pulse rifle", "I was hired to restore (x)", etc... He's quite braggadocios

_________________
Lt. Melissa L. Klassen, ALG
AL Colonial Admin. - Executive Officer (XO) -- 2021-2022
RCCM | Royal Canadian Colonial Marines - Commanding Officer (CO) -- 2021-2022

Read the AL Charter Rules & Regulations: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1i3gd9QUyIqI_6rfk8kpxspbKU-JT4MBAjLPxfCkvGJ8

I'm buried at the moment, but would be happy to correct my site with everyone's help... It seems one of those rifles was built with parts AFTER production, and two of them are Alien 3 versions, so...

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Happy to go through all the designations with everyone's help:

Alpha

original aluminum shroud - currently owned by a friend.

Beta

an Alien3 Pulse Rifle repainted green - currently on display in the UK at the Royal Armouries Museum:

https://royalarmouries.org/stories/popu ... ulse-rifle

Delta

original "Aliens: aluminum shroud - currently owned by Propstore?

Epsilon

a black, vacuform shroud Alien3 Pulse Rifle - currently owned by a collector in the U.K.

Gamma

a black, vacuform shroud Alien3 Pulse Rifle - currently owned by a collector in California.

Zeta

a bit of a "Franken-rifle - but built with an original "Aliens" aluminum shroud. After most of the working Pulse Rifles were returned to Bapty following completion of the film, the shrouds were taken off and the live-firing components removed. The "Zeta" rifle was re-assembled from available components and sold to UK collector Lawrence Nathan of Fiction & Fantasy Models. It is one of four known Pulse Rifles to retain the original Mo Gomm forged aluminum shrouds, although this particular shroud has been altered to accommodate the electronics for the counter that were put into the gun (not original to the production). When Nathan asked Bapty to re-assemble this rifle for him, they were unable to locate the prop's original black grip, which explains the standard wooden grip featured on Thompson machine guns.
While hard to confirm, it is suspected that the shotgun housed inside the "grenade launcher" was also added when it was reassembled (and may not be production original). Note that it still retains the shotgun's original trigger guard, and in Aliens the 870s had the trigger guard removed.

Eta

Originally sold by Sothebys in 1992 to a public museum in Pennsylvania. In June 2017, the Eta rifle was sold at auction by Profiles in Hisotry. While not 100 percent accurate, here is the auction listing as it originally appeared:

Aliens original hero Colonial Marine M41-A Pulse Rifle (TCF, 1986). One of the most famous sci-fi firearms, the M41-A Pulse Rifle was featured heavily in James Cameron's 1986 action sequel Aliens. Designed by Cameron himself and constructed under the supervision of renowned armorer Simon Atherton at Bapty Armory, the Pulse Rifle is viewed by many as the pinnacle of Sci-Fi prop weaponry. This is an original prop Pulse Rifle that was originally constructed for and used in Aliens, and later re-built and re-used in Alien 3. The prop is constructed around a WWII era M1A1 Thompson submachine gun, which was originally modified to fire blanks for the production and has since been fully decommissioned. The Thompson is fitted with a custom-made pistol grip, and a custom-made extended barrel.

A SPAS-12 shotgun cage mounts below the Thompson barrel via a custom-stamped barrel shroud, simulating the grenade launcher. The grenade launcher features the original SPAS-12 pump handle, which was cut down for a different look in the film. It slides freely back and forth, allowing the pump-action loading of the launcher to be simulated. As only one version of the Pulse Rifle had a practical grenade launcher (actually a Remington 870 shotgun) fitted, this piece has a dummy grenade launcher filling the SPAS cage. The ends of the piece are capped with a custom-made steel shoulder stock, and a custom-made aluminum barrel cap at the front of the grenade launcher. The entire assembly is housed in a vacuum-formed ABS outer casing, which completes the unique profile of the prop. While all other components on the piece were used in Aliens, the casing was installed specifically for the production of Alien 3. After Aliens, all of the Pulse Rifle props were struck back to their original firearm components, and most of the casings used were discarded as they were no longer deemed necessary. When the decision was made for Weyland scientists to carry Pulse Rifles during the climax of Alien 3, Bapty had to re-assemble the Pulse Rifles and were now lacking the outer casings. New outer casings were therefore manufactured by vacuum-forming over one of the original casings from Aliens, and the new ABS casing was fitted to the prop with bolts, brackets and custom-riveted plates. The outer casing was originally painted black for use in Alien 3, as are all Pulse Rifle props in the film, but was later re-sprayed green by Bapty to return the piece to its classic Aliens form. The clip base is made from wood and is installed with a screw at the front of the casing. The Pulse Rifle is complete and in good film-used and weathered condition. All of the moveable components-the shoulder stock, grenade launcher pump handle, and original Thompson selector switches and trigger-can be moved and positioned. This is a rare opportunity to own a masterpiece of film prop weaponry. Special shipping must be arranged through a federal firearms licensed dealer. $12,000 - $15,000

This piece resides in a private collection today.

Theta

tbd

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Yeah, kinda of a shame if he's gonna be all "Johnny Big-Potatoes".

Has anyone ever tried to contact Simon Atherton for his take on this sort of thing?

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Cpl Aron "septic" Williams
A10/TQ0.0.82146E1

Can someone PM me his name please and I’ll ask a friend of mine who used to work for BAPTY in the 1980s…

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A02/TQ2.0.52141E1

"Errr... Roger that's a 2-1-6..."

That looks like SCC2 brown to me… or ‘Service Brown’… albeit it it seems satin like in finish and not a true flat matt

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A02/TQ2.0.52141E1

"Errr... Roger that's a 2-1-6..."

If I’m right, playing devils advocate, only four marines carried PRs… Apone, Hicks, Hudson and Crowe… with incinerators with Frost, Wierzbowski and Dietrich… so four functional / semi functional ones would have sufficed more or less but as we say it would appear there are more than four just from the photos in the racking…

We as a community have massively buried into detail on issues here… Our desire for detail is potentially much more than anyone’s recollections from BAPTY 35 years ago can accurately satisfy… especially when ALIEN 3 further complicated matters… and especially because fan and media interest have meant that projects initially disassembled have been ‘revived’ - and by this I mean the Pulse Rifles were mostly stripped back. That being said… I do wonder. Presumably, really, the only things they were retrieving were the M1A1 Thompson’s…

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A02/TQ2.0.52141E1

"Errr... Roger that's a 2-1-6..."

I have also often wondered about the paint. It would not have been practical to use Humbrol Brown Bess for everything from small tins although I’m sure You could get spray cans but can’t recall… as I have previously guessed - I wonder if they just got a paint place to do a load of rattle cans of Service Brown… again just Devils Advocate there…

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A02/TQ2.0.52141E1

"Errr... Roger that's a 2-1-6..."

First of all: I never even knew there was an M41A Pulse Rifle Builders Group on Facebook! I immediately joined.
I only ever found the M41 Pulse Rifle group, which is a bit of a snoozefest...

Secondly, I was unable to find posts by said "braggadocios" member. Were these public posts?
Nevertheless, the builders group is a trove of knowledge and fun.

Lastly, I believe some points are (at least partially) correct, others not so much. At least on the 10-hole-hero, I believe there was no locking option for the stock, it was held in a certain position by some sort of screws added in the slots behind the butt end of the Thompson.

Cheers!
Roman

well alright, I guess no sense beating around the bush ; This is the guy and his post (from the Sulaco colonial marines group) with most of the topics referenced above. https://www.facebook.com/groups/5945328 ... 355132384/



I know I for one will be staring at pictures for an unhealthy amount of time today... and lost an unhealthy amount of time stewing yesterday! This is why I hate facebook, yet can't turn away...

I mean, in this thread we dive pretty hard into the clearly visible variations on screen and come up with more likely 5-6 variants (coinciding with the armory photo). viewtopic.php?f=7&t=15202&hilit=short+nozzle+forward+hero

The are quite literally only 2 ways there were "just 4".
-Option 1 = "Just 4" SURVIVED filming. They started with more but they became damaged/unusable so when the film wrapped, just 4 remained (and in the mind of a 20 year old at the time with a now 35 year old memory, that is what stuck out).
-Option 2 = "Just 4" fired, but additional full-metal builds were made and there is actually a series of rifles that is neither hero nor stunt, but in between as a metal non-firing stand-in.

As it stands, those are impossible to research/prove thanks to A3 messing up most of the evidence.

Big - I completely agree. For the record. We know there were probably around four or more metal firers - of course very rarely (if at all) do we see all four firing and stunts are regularly swapped out for firers from scene to scene… we’ve analysed all this before.

What it comes down to is that it would be a lot more helpful if the chap would have been just a tad more considered in his approach - for example - “it’s a lot time ago now but to my recollection…” - there’s no doubt that the chap undoubtedly had had some involvement with BAPTY back in the day and is the chap firing the last remaining hero at BAPTY on the YouTube video if I recall)… we have to take what he tells us and objectively set it out with what we know and what we have found. We have invariably got a LOT of detail through this forum over the years…

Things like the paint, the comment on the sentry guns swapping out for the smart guns and a few other things make sense in some ways.

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A02/TQ2.0.52141E1

"Errr... Roger that's a 2-1-6..."

At this point weapons makers can make a killing if they make licensed replica at a few grand a pop...
A few folks have made functional live fire replicas.
As metallic 3d printing catches on more and gets more affordable I think we will see more live fire replicas going forward. As such it is hoped a true fanatic documents and makes available the files used...

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The impossible takes a while longer and goes over budget too...

From the same individual regarding the OICW:


and


Does he not realize that part was fiction?

Who was he told by?

Someone else commented saying the timelines don't match either

_________________
Lt. Melissa L. Klassen, ALG
AL Colonial Admin. - Executive Officer (XO) -- 2021-2022
RCCM | Royal Canadian Colonial Marines - Commanding Officer (CO) -- 2021-2022

Read the AL Charter Rules & Regulations: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1i3gd9QUyIqI_6rfk8kpxspbKU-JT4MBAjLPxfCkvGJ8

He was just a forklift driver during Aliens at Babty…. So I heard.

fwiw, four aluminum-shrouded rifles here:

_________________

I recently bought a set of four 8x10" photos of the Sulaco armoury, and that photo was included. There are two rivets on the back of number 3, potentially making that Pulse Rifle one that we've never seen before.


Harry

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http://www.facebook.com/TheHHACA - @TheHHACA