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 Post subject: Pulse Rifle Concept and were 16 made for Production?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:44 pm 
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Hi all,

I had a brief minute to ask this question to the fans that's been "bugging" me. ;-) Can anyone provide detail as to how and who exactly designed (pre and post sketch) the final pulse rifle look? Here is what I know (apologies if I am incorrect with anything) so I ask if anyone can provide insight. Also, can anyone provide photos of the PR sketches? Also, what was the weight of the original hero pulse rifle and definitively how many prop versions were made/used for Aliens and which were working. I thought this thread would be useful and could ideally be the primary thread for the history of the Pulse Rifle.

Cameron designed the PR sketch himself and it was constructed under the supervision of armorer Simon Atherton at Bapty Armory. Jim provided his original concept of the weapons/PR. Conceptual artists Syd Mead and Ron Cobb also provided their ideas for the weapons, but the final Pulse Rifle prop was constructed/based off of Cameron’s sketch. John Richardson's (Special Effects Supervisor) initial thought was to find the most reliable blank firing weapons (best flash and rate of fire power) and construct a futuristic look over the frame.

Here is the sketch that I have and am not sure of its accuracy or authenticity and who sketched it.

ptsfppulserifle.jpg
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Last edited by zachilles on Fri Feb 13, 2015 10:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Pulse Rifle History: Who designed the concept?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:52 pm 
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That pretty much is the first PR sketch. I have been told James Cameron did it himself.

In the extra's from the blu ray I think they mention MP5s and M1A1 Thompsons were tested as possible foundations for the Pulse rifle. You see in that sketch it does look to incorporate the MP5.

They slapped it on a Tshirt and let Frost wear it, but in the end they got much brighter and impressive muzzle flashes from the Thompson so they reworked the design to use the Thompson instead for final prop production.

*EDIT - Another fun story is that when the pulse rifles were finished and revealed to Cameron, he said they looked too good. Too clean, too new. So ran around hitting them with hammers. Or so the story goes... For this reason I think he probably was not involved past the first sketch and giving the 'OK' to run with the Thompson instead.



In an expanded universe sort of way, I like to think since it appears on Frosts T-shirt and is therefore a cannon design, that the sketch you posted might be the service rifle the M41A replaced (which in a way it did). It is an old beat up T-shirt after all. Making one of those is on my ever growing list of 'things to do'.


Last edited by bigbisont on Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:24 pm 
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Thanks for your insight? Do you know what was the weight of the hero PR and variations that were made for Aliens?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:34 pm 
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This thread will answer a lot of your questions! it's in the weapons archive at the bottom of the main page along with a lot of other really good PR sources:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6586

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:39 pm 
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zachilles wrote:
Thanks for your insight? Do you know what was the weight of the hero PR and variations that were made for Aliens?


Oh, right. 25lbs is popping up into my head but I am sure that number was just from another thread and not anything specific.

No telling the weight of the static 'stunt' props.

As for how many Rifles were originally produced, good question! The link retro provided and the Aliens Archive site have a great amount of detail about the number of rifles that "survived" and exist today, but I'm not sure the exact number back then is known. There are probably a couple threads about that already, but if not it could be fun to hash it out here simply by citing the differences between rifles.

For example, this thread IDs 3 x different rifles used in the Queen's egg chamber by Ripley alone.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5442&hilit=different+egg+pulse+stunt+hero

I suppose looking at key characteristics from each rifle appearing on screen one might get a good idea of the total# as there were actually some fairly significant differences between them. Probably won't be conclusive but could be fun...


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 Post subject: Re: Pulse Rifle Concept and were 16 PRs made?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 10:28 am 
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So I found these pics and noticed there were at least 16 pulse rifles made for production (stunt and real). Some would have been made out of foam rubber. For the sake of simplicity let's count those as well. If you look at these Polaroid continuity pics you'll see there are at least 16 pulse rifles located on the right side of the armory room where drake/vazquez were positioned, while frost was on the left side of the room prepping a few PR for use on the table. If you look at the 2nd continuity photo you'll see there are about 5 PRs on the table. These 5 likely correspond to the 5 missing on the rack on the right side of the room. Lastly, in ones scene you'll see Frost handing out one PR (from the left side of the room) to Crowe while two PR remain on the shelf. As they all leave the room, you can briefly catch another rack with and what appears to be 3-5 PRs in that rack. Cameron could have simply moved these around to create an illusion of an abundance of pulse rifles during different shots as we never get to see all weapons on boths sides of the room/shelves in one shot. So my final thoughts are that there were 16 PR (stunt and real) located on two racks positioned in the right side of the room. Eight were on the right side rack, with only 3 on the left side rack, while the remaining 5 were on the table next to Frost. Lastly, it looks like the only soldiers using PRs on Hadley's Hope were Crowe, Hicks, Hudson, and Apone. I welcome any additional insight on thise subject. Thanks!

One last thing...the Polaroid photo of the pulse rifles on the table supports Harry's comments that the original PRs were quite a bit wider at that point than most, if not all of the replicas out there. Consequently the magazine base is quite a bit wider too and no one PR were alike.

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Last edited by zachilles on Fri Feb 13, 2015 10:56 am, edited 3 times in total.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 10:38 am 
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This is an interesting Polaroid continuity picture. It looks like Remar who initially played Hicks but his pulse rifle is missing the shroud. Strange as to why they would include this in the continuity pic. An accident?

Thoughts anyone?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 12:12 pm 
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That photo would have most likely been taken for costume reference and was taken at a costume fitting, probably close to the start of shooting. I imagine the Pulse rifles weren't ready as a lot of the photos like this also have "Should have Motion Tracker" written on them.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 3:07 pm 
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Thanks Harry for that insight! I actually found a photo in my laptop that I took a while ago that clearly shows all 16 pulse rifles on the (8 on each side) rack. You can also note the slight width variations among the various magazine bases. This was shown in the special edition version. So now the question becomes how many were stunt and how many were real/semi real? Anyone want to chime in? :D

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 Post subject: Re: Pulse Rifle Concept and were 16 made for Production?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 4:08 pm 
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It is pretty safe to say that anything left untouched on the rack was a "dummy". So there goes at least 8 of the 16, right?

8 "real" PRs seems a bit much considering, as you mention, only 4 marines actually carried them (2 would be 'offed' quickly, but then Vaz and Ripley picked up the slack by starting to carry them). So the point is throughout the vast majority of the movie and outside the armory, there was a max 4 PRs on screen at the same time (probably not even that many).

BUT... according to alienscollection.com, there are actually 5-7 surviving 'hero' pulse rifles (hero in the "real thompson" sense. Not all had the 870 in the grenade launcher. Actually very few had a functional grenade luancher. Maybe only 1 even)
-Alpha (propstore item)
-Beta (see note below. Likely Alien War London and Alien 3)
-Delta (Alien 3 and Propstore)
-Eta ("bent stock" Alien War)
-Zeta ("Tech manual" rifle supposedly made from "re-assembled" original parts)

*I know "Theta" (Alien War w/o bent stock) and "Gamma" (THe "icons" pulse rifle, Alien 3) are listed as a separate Rifles, but they both look to me like the "Beta". Handles are the same, "spongy" looking mag base is the same, extra plates that are pop-riveted to the carry handle section of shrouds are the same, distinctive plate on front of mag area on shroud identical, notches on stocks look the same, missing 'tabs' at bottom of mag base is alllll the same. Only thing different are paint and presence of the front 'block' on the GL which are all easily altered over a 30 year history of traveling around.


So the point is, we have at least components of 5 surviving 'real' pulse rifles PLUS the infamous 10-hole true hero with functional 870 grendade launcher (probably on Cameron's wall in his office). That is 6 blank-firing 'heroes' at minimum


I'll play around with some screen matching and see if I can elaborate any more. This is a fun topic.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 5:22 pm 
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Look at the bottoms of the stocks in those pics (ignore the similar looking rack prongs inbetween), you can see some are rectangular X section and some are shallow 'U's. The former are deffo stunts but the latter implies metal stocks making them more likely 'hero'ish.

Eg. 2nd up from bottom pic, 1 In shadow, four U and two rectangular.

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 Post subject: Re: Pulse Rifle Concept and were 16 made for Production?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 10:11 pm 
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This is a fun topic. :-) Looking forward to hearing more of your thoughts. Cheers

bigbisont wrote:
It is pretty safe to say that anything left untouched on the rack was a "dummy". So there goes at least 8 of the 16, right?

8 "real" PRs seems a bit much considering, as you mention, only 4 marines actually carried them (2 would be 'offed' quickly, but then Vaz and Ripley picked up the slack by starting to carry them). So the point is throughout the vast majority of the movie and outside the armory, there was a max 4 PRs on screen at the same time (probably not even that many).

BUT... according to alienscollection.com, there are actually 5-7 surviving 'hero' pulse rifles (hero in the "real thompson" sense. Not all had the 870 in the grenade launcher. Actually very few had a functional grenade luancher. Maybe only 1 even)
-Alpha (propstore item)
-Beta (see note below. Likely Alien War London and Alien 3)
-Delta (Alien 3 and Propstore)
-Eta ("bent stock" Alien War)
-Zeta ("Tech manual" rifle supposedly made from "re-assembled" original parts)

*I know "Theta" (Alien War w/o bent stock) and "Gamma" (THe "icons" pulse rifle, Alien 3) are listed as a separate Rifles, but they both look to me like the "Beta". Handles are the same, "spongy" looking mag base is the same, extra plates that are pop-riveted to the carry handle section of shrouds are the same, distinctive plate on front of mag area on shroud identical, notches on stocks look the same, missing 'tabs' at bottom of mag base is alllll the same. Only thing different are paint and presence of the front 'block' on the GL which are all easily altered over a 30 year history of traveling around.


So the point is, we have at least components of 5 surviving 'real' pulse rifles PLUS the infamous 10-hole true hero with functional 870 grendade launcher (probably on Cameron's wall in his office). That is 6 blank-firing 'heroes' at minimum


I'll play around with some screen matching and see if I can elaborate any more. This is a fun topic.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 4:26 am 
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Zachilles, you just made my day! You have a screen grab of Frost handing out PR's, but what I never noticed before were the two incinerators at the front of the rack! I've been trying to figure out where the M240's were stored and now I know!

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:08 am 
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Its pretty clear on my blu-ray. To be honest, this is one of the BEST forums I have ever joined. All the members here are really passionate, courteous, and helpful. Any chance I get to help fellow members in any way is a true enjoyment. Seriously, I am Glad I could help man. :-) Feel free to take a shot at figuring how many pulse rifles do you see in the special edition. ;-)

retrogarde wrote:
Zachilles, you just made my day! You have a screen grab of Frost handing out PR's, but what I never noticed before were the two incinerators at the front of the rack! I've been trying to figure out where the M240's were stored and now I know!


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 Post subject: Re: Pulse Rifle Concept and were 16 made for Production?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:52 pm 
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This could be another step toward identifying the "dummy" pulses from the front. OR...it could be nothing, and just the same dummy over and over again.

I first noticed Hudson's Pulse rifle that he carries in several scenes had a gap between the shrouds and the barrel vent (so the actual barrel was visible).
Of course it appears the vent is just too far forward and overhangs the GL.

This is the rifle he has in several scenes
Attachment:
Hudson bw.jpg
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I noticed Vasquez is seen with this Rifle (or at least that style barrel) in at least one scene.

Then I noticed Remar is seen with this rifle in the early stages of the Hive scene
Attachment:
Remar 2.jpg
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Then I noticed Ripley's dummy has that style of "too far forward" barrel vent as she escapes the egg chamber.
Attachment:
Hive seen Rifle #3 (stunt) 2.jpg
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In the other appearances of that overhanging vent I have yet to see it appear where the holes in the vent look like holes (such as light passing through the holes). It always looks "filled in".

All this leads me to believe all the 'forward'/overhanging barrels are "dummy" Pulses, but does this mean all dummy pulses have overhanging barrels?!
Maybe not, but I'm suggesting they might be. If true, any time you see a "traditionally" place barrel vent then it is likely to be a 'real' one.

No true "dummy" rifles have ever been seen after filming, correct? At least none 'known'/publicized? Maybe it was partially because they were all so ugly! gotta destroy those suckers...


Last edited by bigbisont on Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Pulse Rifle Concept and were 16 made for Production?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:04 pm 
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Side note, speaking of barrel vents too far forward, what is up with the "hero" being too far back here??

Possibly 2 actual 10-hole heroes??? Or a broken one sloppily repaired in later scenes.


In the pulse 'training' scene we have a "perfect" Hero pulse rifle with "42" on the counter, a 10 hole vent, and an "ideally" set barrel vent with the base near flush with the front of the SPAS cage. (and Horribly ugly contorted plate in front of mag well on the shroud though, which is NOT how most 'idealized' parts are depicted)

Attachment:
PulseTraining.jpg
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And later in the elevator we have the same "42" on the counter, the ugly contorted front plate on the mag well, 10 hole vent... BUT a really far backward vent offset much further away from the front of the SPAS cage than earlier.

Attachment:
RipleyFinal.jpg
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So this either means there are 2 x 10x hole heroes or it means the barrel vent was removed (or broke) and was reattached in a different spot at some time. Impossible to say, but interesting to me.



One thing that is for sure, the more I dig into this topic the more relaxed I feel about building a "screen accurate" pulse!!! These damn things are all over the place.

Look at Hudson's death seen front mag well. Look how HUGE and square it looks. Obviously that was a live fire thompson 'hero'
Attachment:
Hudson Action2.jpg
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 Post subject: Re: Pulse Rifle Concept and were 16 made for Production?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:16 pm 
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bigbisont wrote:
One thing that is for sure, the more I dig into this topic the more relaxed I feel about building a "screen accurate" pulse!!! These damn things are all over the place.

I've studied a lot of Pulse Rifles in my time, both in person and in photos and no two are identical, there are subtle (and not so subtle as you've pointed out) differences in them all.

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 Post subject: Re: Pulse Rifle Concept and were 16 made for Production?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 7:29 am 
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I totally agree with you Harry.

Harry Harris wrote:
bigbisont wrote:
One thing that is for sure, the more I dig into this topic the more relaxed I feel about building a "screen accurate" pulse!!! These damn things are all over the place.

I've studied a lot of Pulse Rifles in my time, both in person and in photos and no two are identical, there are subtle (and not so subtle as you've pointed out) differences in them all.

Harry


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 Post subject: Re: Pulse Rifle Concept and were 16 made for Production?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:38 pm 
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Oh without question. Still, we need to go even further. If we are trying to determine how many pulse rifles there were, we need to identify these unique features and separate them.

-Lets call Hudson's death scene live fire pulse "Big Square" (I welcome better names, but that mag plate and even mag base are so huge and blocky!)

-The true "hero 10-hole" has already been well established as the primary close-up and possibly only pulse with a fully functional grenade launcher.

-The famous prop shot of the Pulse next to the measuring tape seems to be the ideal example of the 8-hole barrel vent. I will call it "ideal 8-hole". It does appear to have the 870 inside it. However, even it is quite ugly (uneven/asymmetrical) in places so we should be able to distinguish other live-fire pulses from it in screen caps.

Attachment:
aliensbtspulse3.jpg
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-Russ Krook's thread I referenced earlier contained these images (copy pasted direct from link to his thread) of Ripley's "other" live fire rifle in the Hive.
This is an 8-hole vent, but does NOT seem to have a functional grenade launcher. The front GL barrel is near nonexistent and the slide goes too far forward AND too far backward. It is clearly not connected to anything. BUT it does also clearly have the primary barrel 'reducer'/extension which lenthened the barrel and allowed it to fire blanks, so it must have been a live fire version. It also has a MUCH narrower front plate on the mag well portion of the shroud than Hudson's death scene rifle. So it 100% is not "old rectangle", "10-hole hero", nor the "ideal 8 hole". I'm going to call that one "over-extender" until further notice.

Attachment:
Hive seen Rifle #2 over and underextended.jpg
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Attachment:
Hive seen Rifle #2.jpg
Hive seen Rifle #2.jpg [ 48.21 KiB | Viewed 13056 times ]


(Again, these were "Russ Krooks" screan grabs/notes [except circles], If it is not ok to move them to this thread let me know)


So right there we already have 4 completely unique 'hero' (at minimum Real Thompson) blank firing rifles. I will keep looking and messing around to see how many more new ones I can identify. I welcome any new input/images


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 Post subject: Re: Pulse Rifle Concept and were 16 made for Production?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:56 pm 
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I am still a bit obsessed with this topic and have been doing some digging. Last weekend I went through the entire movie and tried to get a screen shot of every pulse rifle to appear on screen where an identifying detail might be visible. My method is very inexact (taking pictures of the screen with my phone) so please forgive the crudeness and lack of photo quality.

So first up, details on The "Rubber Stunts" = Could be anywhere from 7 to 11 of these. We need to figure exact number of firing heroes to determine this.

-The easiest way to identify a rubber stunt is the ‘forward barrel vent’ discussed earlier.
-Also mentioned earlier, if you can see the stock on a 'rubber stunt', you will notice it has a rectangular look as opposed to the "C" channel appearance which the steel ones are made of.
-The rear underside also appears as if the shrouds wrap all the way around it behind the grip. The shroud is clearly not two halves around the thompson as it is molded and painted as a single unit (hard to describe, hopefully images make this idea more clear)
-They also have a different mag base shape. Again, it is hard to describe so hopefully the pics will convey what I am saying. The contours of the shroud itself are carried through the mag base a bit more on the stunts. It is a more complex shape with more sides.

Attachment:
Details1.jpg
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It goes without saying, but the stunts were used in numerous background shots and used extensively when "multi-tasking" was required. Most every character has one eventually and they are particularly noticeable when the character is also carrying a flashlight or motion tracker in the other hand. (or has a flamethrower duct taped to it)

Attachment:
MultiTaskPrime.jpg
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The "Forward Hero"
Now this, is what I thought the fun and interesting part was. Why did they mold the stunts 'wrong'? That forward barrel sticks out like a sore thumb. My guess is the very first rifle off the assembly line was the one molded so that they would be ready, and there IS a steel vented rifle that has the 'wrong' placement.

Attachment:
Forward Hero.jpg
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Now the "forward Hero" is never actually seen firing. Since it appears to have been hastily slapped together for molding, it may not actually be a live fire rifle. BUT, it does have steel parts as you can see in those pics, you can see through the vent unlike the other clearly molded examples.

So I'm going to call that the "Forward Hero" for now.


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 Post subject: Re: Pulse Rifle Concept and were 16 made for Production?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 3:08 pm 
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Next up is the "Short Nozzle Hero"

This one doesn't appear often, but does show up in multiple characters hands. It is first seen with Hudson in the Locker room, is later carried by Hicks outside the bay door, is actually fired in the ops battle, and is also used by Ripley in the hunt for Newt.

Again, Krooks images show it did NOT have an active "grenade launcher". The slide goes both too far forward and too far backwards, so it is clearly not attached to anything. But the Thompson is seen to fire.

Attachment:
Little Nozzle Hero.jpg
Little Nozzle Hero.jpg [ 213.54 KiB | Viewed 12786 times ]


Last edited by bigbisont on Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Pulse Rifle Concept and were 16 made for Production?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 3:26 pm 
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It has been postulated long ago that the rifle Hudson is carrying as the critters close in was a "dummy" rifle as there is a big "D" written on the bottom of the mag base. I do not believe this to be true as it has none of the characteristics of the 'rubber stunts'.

Further, I believe this is the 'death rifle' of both Hudson and Vaz. (I am not saying the D stands for that! Who knows what the heck that D means)

The "D" Hero / "Big Square"

Attachment:
D Rifle master.jpg
D Rifle master.jpg [ 297.11 KiB | Viewed 12781 times ]


When Vaz is holding it while they interrogate Burke (after his evil deed), she moves it from her shoulder to a relaxed position and you do see through the vent. This is no 'dummy'.

It also has the extra wide front plate of the mag portion on the shrouds. It is a very wide plate compared to every other rifle (only the 10 hole hero has a plate that comes close to it in size, and this is not the 10 hole. Hudson has the 10-hole during the Burke interrogation/judgement)


Here are some screen grabs of "big square" which I now believe it is the "D Rifle"
Attachment:
Big Square.jpg
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It was also carried by Vaz in the vents.

The closeups of the barrel firing are simply to highlight the fact it is not the "short nozzle", nor "Forward hero".


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 Post subject: Re: Pulse Rifle Concept and were 16 made for Production?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 4:00 pm 
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The "10-Hole Hero" really needs no introduction. I will just be highlighting some fun facts.

Obviously this was the famed rifle documented in the Bapty build photos.
Attachment:
Build Photos.jpg
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It is most famous as the "training" rifle introduced to Ripley by Hicks. The 'fun' part, at least to me, is this rifle is often considered the "ideal" pulse rifle. However, it is not immune to having its own oddball 'non-idealized' features.

-It has no front sling ring. Look it up in any scene! The sling is just looped around the front vent hole. All you Evike/Snow wolf guys out there with the sling attached that way are actually screen accurate!
-It has a front mag plate that is extra wide and is long enough that is has to 'wrap' the grenade launcher trigger mechanism.
-Mag base is huge. Not unlike "big square" it simply has a bigger base than others.
-Sight groove along top is a fair bit narrower than other pulses.

Attachment:
10-hole Imperfections.jpg
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So along those lines; There IS a grenade launcher trigger mechanism. This means the shotgun in the SPAS shroud is actually "live". It maaay be the only pulse where the 870's function was kept in tact as the trigger mechanism that contains the 'spring' for the hammer on the 870 has not been removed.

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10 hole comp.jpg
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It did get passed around a bit too. Frost had it in the armory, Apone had it when entering the colony, Hudson has it during Burke's interrogation/judgement, and of course Ripley trains on it. Ripley is seen with it in the elevator when hunting for Newt, but for some reason the barrel vent is offset much further back at that point. Maybe got damaged? Could be why they went with "short nozzle" in the later scenes when Ripley is blowing up eggs despite it being a significantly less cool version.


Last edited by bigbisont on Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Pulse Rifle Concept and were 16 made for Production?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 4:24 pm 
THAT guy
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Service Number: A03/TQ2.0.02146E1
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Last up of the confirmed 'heroes' is the "Ideal 8"

This is the rifle photographed by the props department. It clearly has an 870 shotgun inside it, but the trigger mechanism is not present so it 'racks' but doesnt 'fire' from the grenade launcher. It has a more 'idealized' mag area with a narrow tapered front plate and modestly sized mag base. Those features combined with the the 8-hole vent and protruding grenade launcher barrel show it to be a rifle completely separate from those previously discussed so far.

Attachment:
Ideal 8 hole.jpg
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I have tons and tons of images of rifles I think are this one. But its very very hard to say for sure.


Case in point, this one absolutely looks like it .
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Hicks in Hive.jpg
Hicks in Hive.jpg [ 174.77 KiB | Viewed 12772 times ]


BUT...why can you see the light out the other side of the GL ejection port? That pulse has an 8 hole vent, removable magazine (implying live fire), has the GL barrel protruding, but can't possibly have an 870 in that SPAS cage. Light would never get through the 870. So ...is this a 6th 'hero'? Or is it just "Big Square" from the side? I can't be sure.


So my research continues. For now I feel safe saying there were at least 5 'hero' (non-stunt) and likely more.

Confirmed unique so far:
-Forward Hero
-Short Nozzle
-Big Square / D
-10 Hole
-Ideal 8 Hole


Last edited by bigbisont on Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 5:04 pm 
Prop Churner Outer
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Damn fine detective work!

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