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FAQ: Using the Tokyo Marui Spas 12 in a Pulse Rifle...
http://forum.alienslegacy.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1471
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Author:  Ignaut [ Wed Jan 28, 2004 3:57 pm ]
Post subject:  FAQ: Using the Tokyo Marui Spas 12 in a Pulse Rifle...

What do you guys think of this item? Is it suitable for a good aliens replica? Could I drop a 870 replica into it? How much work would it take to make it fit? How does it's quality compare to that of other makers?


...or should I just wait to get a real SPAS cage?

Brian
Edited by: [url=http://pub217.ezboard.com/bthealienslegacy.showUserPublicProfile?gid=rook3>Rook 3[/url] at: 1/28/04 2:34 pm

Author:  uscmCorps [ Wed Jan 28, 2004 5:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Views on Mauri Spas cage and grip

We've been over this a lot of times :roll: ... but here's what I know:

Quote:
Quote:What do you guys think of this item?

It ain't metal but it's pretty solid compared to most of the other airsoft alternatives. However, being plastic means that the material thickness is considerably thicker than that of metal in order to be strong enough to handle skirmishes. Also the Tokyo Marui (TM) Spas 12 isn't cheap. Averaging around US$200+ that's a bit steep to buy one just to strip down to that one part.

Quote:
Quote:Is it suitable for a good aliens replica?

This is a tough call. Depends on how functional you intend it to be. On the plus side, it's the strongest cage from an airsoft that is currently available. Also, it's plastic, so it should be easier to cut the loading and ejection ports, and modify the front to accomodate the grenade launcher (GL) front block. A major con against it is that you really can't fit much into the cage because it's plastic and the material is thicker. You should be able to put an AEG battery into the cage and not much else.

Quote:
Quote:Could I drop a 870 replica into it?

Depends.
Can you put a real steel M870 into it? - No.
Can you put an airsoft M870 into it? - No.
The plastic material of the TM Spas 12 is simply too thick to accommodate either of these. In fact a real steel Spas 12 cage would have difficulty fitting an airsoft M870, as the airsoft M870 is wider than the real M870. A real steel M870 receiver just barely fits into a real steel Spas 12 cage. Typically, people wishing to do so have to mill a 1" wide channel that runs the length of the receiver to have it fit in the real Spas 12 cage.
However, it is conceivable to take a resin replica M870 receiver, cut it in half vertically (along its spine), and remove a 1/4" or more of material from the inner halves of the receiver. Basically, you want to remove enough material so that when the two halves are rejoined it just slides into the TM Spas 12 cage. Bare in mind that doing this would probably require some cleanup of the lower loading port section of the M870. You also need to think about how you intend to mount the GL onto the thompson. That's a discussion all onto itself and depends on the thompson that you will be using.

Quote:
Quote:How much work would it take to make it fit?

See above. In short... it ain't easy and would take a fair bit of work but it is do-able.

Quote:
Quote:How does it's quality compare to that of other makers?

TM Spas 12 has perhaps the best quality of all the airsoft Spas 12s currently available. It's also the most accurate in terms of outer dimensions, and overall aesthetic. Most other makers out there (for example, Zida) use weaker plastics and/or have an inaccurate number of vent holes running the length of the cage. The overall quality of the other makers tends to be really low.

Quote:
Quote:...or should I just wait to get a real SPAS cage?

Yeah... best of luck with that. :oops: As the vast majority of this board can attest to, real Spas 12 cages are near impossible to find. And if you do find one expect to pay a lot. Owners of these cages outside of our little community know what they typically get used for and bump up the prices.

In summary, if you have the skills and patience... go for it!!! It should be possible! ;)

-Alex




"The M41-A. When you absolutely, positively have to kill every mofo in the room. Accept no substitutes."Edited by: [url=http://pub217.ezboard.com/bthealienslegacy.showUserPublicProfile?gid=uscmcorps>uscmCorps[/url] at: 1/28/04 10:28 am

Author:  Wolvster [ Wed Jan 28, 2004 6:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Views on Mauri Spas cage and grip

From what I have read over time.

IF you want to use it, you can.

BE PREPARED TO GRIND ALOT ! :(

Author:  Rook 3 [ Wed Jan 28, 2004 11:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Views on Mauri Spas cage and grip

Thanks for summing that up for me Alex. :)
I'm making this sticky and changing the title slightly.

Rook

Visit Rook's Castle, I dare you! What's a matter McFly? Chicken?

Author:  Ripper 714 [ Thu Jan 29, 2004 12:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Views on Mauri Spas cage and grip

I'm not sure if this might work or not...
Why must we put an 870 in there? Its only a shotgun, so won't any small shotgun work?
Instead of a spring shotgun, could you possibly fit a gas canister in there? If so, couldn't you just fire it off like that?
of course, if you put the canister in there, then theres no room for the battery of the thompson. never mind.

Ripper
_____________________________________________________________________
"Rip. Short For Ripper. Caus Rest In Peace when i'm done with you."

Author:  SSgt Burton [ Thu Jan 29, 2004 12:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Views on Mauri Spas cage and grip

Quote:
Quote:Why must we put an 870 in there?


If nothing else, to have a screen accurate AS replica PR.:)

My knowledge of airsoft is intermediate at best, so I don't know if any other springer or gas shotguns would work.
Kevin
The Sarge's Site
[url=http://ca.photos.yahoo.com/bc/ssgtburton/lst?.dir=/Sarge%27s+Pics&.src=ph&.order=&.view=t
&.done=http%3a//ca.photos.yahoo.com/]Sarge's Pics[/url]

"Marines I see as two breeds, Rottweilers or Dobermans, because Marines come in two varieties, big and mean, or skinny and mean. They've got really short hair and they always go for the throat."

Author:  Rook 3 [ Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Views on Mauri Spas cage and grip

The whole reason for sticking with the M870 is the fact that in the screen used Pulse Rifle that was the shotgun used.

Basically, it's YOUR replica, you can put whatever you want in there.

But, that's kind of like using a Beretta 92F instead of a Broomhandle Mauser in making Han Solo's pistol. :)

Rook

Visit Rook's Castle, I dare you! What's a matter McFly? Chicken?

Author:  Ripper 714 [ Thu Jan 29, 2004 2:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Views on Mauri Spas cage and grip

well, its basically an internal and most AS shotguns work the same....so...
its a tad different...
well, i guess theres only one way to find out...

Ripper
_____________________________________________________________________
"Rip. Short For Ripper. Caus Rest In Peace when i'm done with you."

Author:  uscmCorps [ Thu Jan 29, 2004 3:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Views on Mauri Spas cage and grip

Ripper, when I first started looking into making an airsoft PR (about 6 years ago) I was a strong advocate of ensuring that the GL section of a PR remain a functional secondary weapon. I maintained that belief up until about 2 to 3 years ago when we all as a community started to actively look into the options and discuss the possibilities of a firing vs. non-firing GL. There are a lot of factors involved, some of which I outlined above. Aside from the difficulty of inserting a Maruzen M870 gas shotgun into a real steel Spas 12 (the M870 being too wide), here are some of the other issues we needed to consider:

Would having a firing M870 really help much? :
Yeah, it's kind of a cool thing to have... a secondary weapon... but the Maruzen M870 is not very powerful at all.
Also, this particular airsoft shotgun uses plastic BB shotgun shells. Whilst some of the other airsoft shotguns would allow the user to fire +/- 10 times, you'd only be able to fire the M870 3 times (this we determined by estimating the potential shell-tube capacity. It would only hold 3 shells). Furthermore, you have to ask yourself whether or not you'd want to worry about loosing these re-usable shotgun shells in the middle of a fire fight. As aggravating as it might be trying to find these shells on the floor in an urban environment, imagine trying to recover them in the forest/woods/jungle.

I'm not worried about loosing shells... I'm rich... I can afford it...
Consider this, a maruzen M870 weighs about 1820grams/4 lbs. During a skirmish you will notice the difference 4 lbs make. Heck, ask Rook, his AEG PR doesn't use a Maruzen M870 and it's heavy enough as it is. Carrying a PR with a M870 is comparable to an airsoft M60 or a M249. :shock:

How about not using it in a skirmish... it's nice to know that it's there:
If the PR is intended to be purely for wall hanging and not skimishing at all, then yeah, you don't have to worry about loosing shells as much. But if you still want to be able to fire the GL you have a couple more things to consider. The GL is gas operated via a cylinder that, in the pistol grip version, resides in the pistol grip, and in the full shoulder stock version resides in the shoulder stock. Once the M870 is placed in the PR, where do you place this gas cylinder/reservoir? There is very little room in the rest of the gun. The PR shroud looks like it should have a wealth of space but that space is taken up with shroud supports and hardware that attaches the shroud to the thompson and GL. I seem to recall that MIM achieved this by placing the gas canister above the GL just below the front of the shroud. Personally, I think this approach is somewhat flawed. That space is integral to allowing the GL to be securely mounted onto the bottom of the thompson's receiver/barrel.
Also consider this, the TM Thompson M1A1 runs on a battery. The MIM PR requires the user to carry the battery externally. There just isn't adequate room in the shroud to accomodate a full size battery... even a small battery probably won't fit. The user is then forced to use a battery pouch and attach said pouch onto the PR somewhere... most likely onto the retractable stock... rendering the retractable stock... non-retractable :| . Not to mention the unattractive aesthetic this creates. Most other airsoft PRs, place the battery within the GL, which has adequate space for a battery, but renders the GL non-firing.

Well that sucks... can I at least have the GL rackable?
You can still have the GL rackable... there are a few options:
* Do what GEM did and just slide the grip onto the Spas 12 cage, drill a hex bolt into the side of the GL at a point that defines how far back the grip should go. When the grip is pulled back it will only travel up to the bolt. Simple eh? Problems with this: the Spas 12 grip is made of plastic/composite. With enough racking back and forth, the grip will eventually wear away, resulting in a loose grip which will slide about all the time.
* GWII did a fantastic job of keeping the Maruzen M870 receiver in the GL, but removed the barrel and shell-tube. The Spas 12 grip was then connected to the Maruzen M870's rackable system, and each pump of the grip racked the M870. This also cycled a single shell if one was loaded into the breach. By removing the components forward of the receiver adequate space was made for a large battery.
* GNG had a similar approach but much cheaper and functionally different. They modeled the M870 receiver into the all plastic GL. The ejection port was left open, and a tube with an opening in its side was attached to the GL pump grip. When the grip was unpumped, the GL ejection port showed a section of the tube without the hole in its side. When the grip is pulled back, the tube inside the GL slides back exposing the hole in the tube, and through the hole you can see the grenade. I liked GWII's approach which is perhaps the most aesthetically accurate attempt at a functional PR. However, in terms of skirmishing, I would prefer GNG's approach which is cheaper (no Maruzen M870 to buy), lighter (no Maruzen M870 to carry), and aesthetically decent enough for even my tastes.

How about putting a different shotgun in there?
Other models of shotgun have their ejection and loading ports located in positions that differ from that of the M870. They also have issues with overall width of their shotgun receivers. The Ithaca M37 (by KTW), might be thin enough, but it uses a bottom ejection system (The same window at the bottom of the receiver is used to load the magazine and to eject the spent cartridges). This is of course aesthetically inaccurate. The M3 Super 90 shotgun is definitely too wide. The Mossberg M500 has it's gas cylinder within the receiver, but is too costly, and you would have to give up the battery space if you want the GL to fire. Probably to wide as well.
Maruzen has developed a new spring operated shotgun that is based on the M870. This new shotgun is dubbed "CA870". However, it does not use shells. Instead it uses a clip that slides into the loading port and hangs down about 1" below the receiver. This is aesthetically inaccurate. We're also unsure as to how much this new shotgun can be modified at this current time. Ripper asked if it's possible to install other types of weapons in their instead. The answer would vary depending on the airsoft/AEG weapon involved. Many things must be accounted for such as how you would supply the BBs to the receiver, and the source of power for such a secondary weapon.

-Alex
"The M41-A. When you absolutely, positively have to kill every mofo in the room. Accept no substitutes."

Author:  uscmCorps [ Thu Jan 29, 2004 3:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Views on Mauri Spas cage and grip

Regarding my last two posts... sorry if they seem like a rant or a couple of essays there, but this seems like something that's asked frequently enough to warrant a full download of knowledge accumulated on the matter to date.

What's posted above are the facts that we as a board initially investigated and discovered, and further investigation was done by Rook, myself and others since then.

Just good to get some of the research that has been done out there, so as to limit the amount of repetitive research.

-Alex



"The M41-A. When you absolutely, positively have to kill every mofo in the room. Accept no substitutes."

Author:  Ripper 714 [ Thu Jan 29, 2004 4:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Views on Mauri Spas cage and grip

nono, I think those posts were excellent insight to the functionality to a Pulse Rifle, thanks for the posts!

Ripper
_____________________________________________________________________
"Rip. Short For Ripper. Caus Rest In Peace when i'm done with you."

Author:  SSgt Burton [ Thu Jan 29, 2004 11:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Views on Mauri Spas cage and grip

Not a rant at all! As Rip said, excellent information for a question that is repeated again and again.

Good enough for the archives!:D
Kevin
The Sarge's Site
[url=http://ca.photos.yahoo.com/bc/ssgtburton/lst?.dir=/Sarge%27s+Pics&.src=ph&.order=&.view=t
&.done=http%3a//ca.photos.yahoo.com/]Sarge's Pics[/url]

"Marines I see as two breeds, Rottweilers or Dobermans, because Marines come in two varieties, big and mean, or skinny and mean. They've got really short hair and they always go for the throat."

Author:  uscmCorps [ Fri Jan 30, 2004 2:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Views on Mauri Spas cage and grip

In that case... are there any other questions that you guys see being asked repeatedly that needs to be clarified in a similar fashion?

-Alex


"The M41-A. When you absolutely, positively have to kill every mofo in the room. Accept no substitutes."

Author:  Ignaut [ Fri Jan 30, 2004 7:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Views on Mauri Spas cage and grip

This was perfect Alex. Thanks so much for your in-depth response. I had heard lots of discussion of using airsoft spas cages, but I had never heard a good explanation and definitive answer to the question. I think that I'm going to try dropping an m870 replica into a mauri cage. If it doesn't work, then I'll just keep the mauri for my next "stunt" PR. ;) I guess I'm going to have a lot of sanding ahead of me this spring break!

Thanks again.

**Could we possible archive this thread? It seems like it might be a good resource to have long-term.**

Author:  Ignaut [ Sat Jan 31, 2004 5:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Views on Mauri Spas cage and grip

Grrrrrr! I'm not a newbie anymore! I've been here for a year now! Grrrr!

(Just kidding)

Brian

Edited by: [url=http://pub217.ezboard.com/bthealienslegacy.showUserPublicProfile?gid=ignaut>Ignaut[/url] at: 1/30/04 10:33 pm

Author:  Rook 3 [ Sat Jan 31, 2004 6:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Views on Mauri Spas cage and grip

I aim to have it here permanently, as it IS one of the top 10 newbie questions that get's asked over and over.

We may add it to the archive in the future as well.

Rook

Visit Rook's Castle, I dare you! What's a matter McFly? Chicken?

Author:  MENATARMS [ Sat Jan 31, 2004 7:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Views on Mauri Spas cage and grip

What I would like to see: Using the M41's GL section to house a small paintball gun. I took a look at an El Cheapo one at a store in Hawaii similar to BIG5's; these are the ones that have hand pumps (I think to induce the paintball into the chamber), and from the basics they look like you can re-work the CO2 source and the way the PB feeds. Now we're not talking about the PB guns with the huge hoppers and air sources; just the cheapo compact ones that can fire about 6-8 PBs and have little CO2 bottles for air source (they probably don't fire with any respectable velocity, but you can't ask for everything).

The other possibility is to use a RAM (Real Action Marker) paintball gun, although I looked at one (a M4) and the airsource is probably too big to fit inside the PR itself. There's always the option of carrying an external air source, but that would be a real pain for skirmishing.

If you can accept inaccuracy -- you can awlays adapt a CAW BB Shower, but the GL would have to have a 40mm opening and I'm not sure whether the standard size TM SPAS cage would accomodate 40mm's shells and barrel (somebody verify this).


"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...For he today that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother."Edited by: [url=http://pub217.ezboard.com/bthealienslegacy.showUserPublicProfile?gid=menatarms>MENATARMS[/url] at: 1/31/04 1:28 am

Author:  uscmCorps [ Sat Jan 31, 2004 8:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Views on Mauri Spas cage and grip

What are some of the other top 10 newbie questions? Perhaps we can elborate on those too?

-Alex



"The M41-A. When you absolutely, positively have to kill every mofo in the room. Accept no substitutes."

Author:  MENATARMS [ Sun Feb 01, 2004 2:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Views on Mauri Spas cage and grip

Quote:
Quote: Plus you loose the battery storage space.


The cure to this problem is solved. Enter Toshiba to the rescue. They made this super thin 1.2V 900 mah metal-hydrite(used in OEM Notebook battery packs) that is only roughly 1.5" long and less than a 1/4 thick. I built a 12 pack (14.4:shock: ) from these as a tester. The whole battery pack is only about the size of a pack of cigarettes. You can also configure it as a thin stick as well.

When I get back to Thailand where I found these I will show some images.


"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...For he today that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother."Edited by: [url=http://pub217.ezboard.com/bthealienslegacy.showUserPublicProfile?gid=menatarms>MENATARMS[/url] at: 1/31/04 8:21 pm

Author:  uscmCorps [ Sun Feb 01, 2004 4:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Views on Mauri Spas cage and grip

Quote:
Quote:What I would like to see: Using the M41's GL section to house a small paintball gun.


I've thought about the possibility of making a paintball (pb) version of a PR in the past. The way most current pb markers work is by having a large hopper (the container that feeds paintballs into the marker) mounted on top of the marker at a 45 degree angle to the receiver. But some pb markers have a vertical feed, and it is conceivable to have the vacant space below the PR's carry handle/sight rail taken up with a hopper. CO2 may have to be supplied via a hose attached to a bottle on the wearer's back.

Making the GL into a paintball section has issues of it's own. When paintball first came onto the scene, before the bushmasters and phantoms, and piranhas, they used paintball pistols which used a 10 ball tube as a clip and propelled by small co2 cartidges. Due to the overall size, shape and functionality of these pb pistols, they would probably be the most practical pb marker to use for a GL. But then comes the more important question: what do you intend to use the PR for? Airsoft skirmishing, wall hanging, costuming, or paintball skirmishing? Because I'm pretty sure that the vast majority, if not all, of airsoft skirmishing groups wouldn't want you to be firing paintballs at them.

A CAW BB Shower GL would be interesting, but there's no way a spas 12 cage could fit a 40 mm shell and still retain it's structural integrity. Plus you loose the battery storage space. I think that the new Maruzen CA 870 spring shotgun would be the most practical for a firing BB shotgun, but it too would be taking up space used by the battery. I might be tempted if they develop a magazine for it that didn't hang down an inch below the receiver.

Personally I like to think of having my PRs as skirmish friendly as possible. To be quite honest I think Gary Weaver got it right way back when he was designing his PRs. His approach was, make it look like a PR, but have it as practical for skirmishing as possible. And his stock locking method simply rocked. I like the approach GNG had with the GL, structurally strong, relatively cheap, you could still rack the GL, and the GL can hold a large battery. What I hate about their design was the method they use to swap magazines... you have to remove the magazine base which is attached in such a sloppy way, and then remove the magazine!?!! WTF!?!! :evil: I also didn't like their stock locking method. Kinda weak. My preference: Keep it light, practical, dependable, and lookin' deadly. After 4 hours of game play, you wouldn't have even missed the lack of a firing PR.

My $0.02

-Alex
"The M41-A. When you absolutely, positively have to kill every mofo in the room. Accept no substitutes."

Author:  uscmCorps [ Sun Feb 01, 2004 5:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Views on Mauri Spas cage and grip

But 900 mah doesn't last too long. A 12 pack would be very powerful, perhaps too powerful, but 900 mah wouldn't last 1000 rounds.

-Alex



"The M41-A. When you absolutely, positively have to kill every mofo in the room. Accept no substitutes."

Author:  MENATARMS [ Sun Feb 01, 2004 6:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: FAQ: Using the Tokyo Marui Spas 12 in a Pulse Rifle...

Alex,

This is no problem. Once I post the images -- you will see. You run paralell packs in double or even triple to get 1800, 2700 MAH. Even the tripe packs are still about 1/2 size and weight as those sealed jell 12V motorbike batteries. Trust me -- these are the answer to many space saving problems in AS.;)
"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...For he today that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother."

Author:  Rook 3 [ Sun Feb 01, 2004 8:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: FAQ: Using the Tokyo Marui Spas 12 in a Pulse Rifle...

Perhaps this (battery subject) should be in a new thread?

Nice to hear of a new solution to an age old problem. I wish I had thise kind of cells when I was running an MP5A5 as my main AEG. :D

Rook

Visit Rook's Castle, I dare you! What's a matter McFly? Chicken?

Author:  Anubian Warrior [ Thu Feb 05, 2004 6:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Views on Mauri Spas cage and grip

question...i know the thickness is a issue

but is it still 1:1 size? my friends friend has a cad machine...if the spas is a real size i am sure he can make proper ones


Pain can be avoided by not caring

Author:  uscmCorps [ Thu Feb 05, 2004 7:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Views on Mauri Spas cage and grip

Quote:
Quote:but is it still 1:1 size?

I compared a Marui SPAS 12 at my friend's AS shop in Hong Kong to my real steel SPAS 12 cage. IIRC they are the same dimensions. The ZIDA SPAS 12 cage is the correct size too.

Quote:
Quote:my friends friend has a cad machine...if the spas is a real size i am sure he can make proper ones

Fabricating the cage has been investigated in the past several times. Unless your friend plans to take a block of aluminum and CNC a SPAS 12 cage out of it (which would probably be way too much work) the only other option is to make it out of sheet metal (much more viable). Cutting out a flat sheet in the right approximate shape and with vent holes isn't hard. Any of us can do that. It's the shape of the cage when folded that is the major problem. If you look at the top of the cage, the way it transitions from the upper flat plane, and slopes into the lower plane of the cage... you just can't fold that easily. FYI, on a real SPAS 12 cage the weld seam is on the top of the cage, along the middle. Basically, in my opinion, it would take a lot more than a CAD machine to accomplish this task.

But if your friend says he/she can do it, then I look forward to seeing the results, whether they be positive or negative.

-Alex

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