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My first gas pistol - NEW question at end of thread!
http://forum.alienslegacy.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1323		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Noeland [ Wed Nov 16, 2005 1:12 am ]
Post subject:  My first gas pistol - NEW question at end of thread!
[img]http://propaholics.wolfchasers.com/maian_uploader/uploads/45a.jpg[/img]

The main reason I am posting this is to see if anyone owns one and what the best gas to use is. There is a gun show this weekend and I am confident I can pick some up.

For now, enjoy more pics!

[img]http://propaholics.wolfchasers.com/maian_uploader/uploads/45b.jpg[/img]

[img]http://propaholics.wolfchasers.com/maian_uploader/uploads/45c.jpg[/img]

This is an early christmas gift from my girlfriend. :) I need a plinker for the backyard that doesn't go BOOM!!

[img]http://propaholics.wolfchasers.com/maian_uploader/uploads/45d.jpg[/img]
Edited by: [url=http://p220.ezboard.com/bthealienslegacy.showUserPublicProfile?gid=noeland>Noeland[/url] at: 12/13/05 11:32 am
Author:  Exoframe2 [ Wed Nov 16, 2005 4:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: My first gas powered pistol - need some advice
WE is a Taiwanese company, so I would use the Taiwan Green Gas. It's higher powered than the HFC134a that the Japanese GBB's want. I can't remember the number for Green Gas, I think it's HFC22?
Exo2

My Props Website
Author:  Rook 3 [ Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: My first gas powered pistol - need some advice
Yep, the generic is HFC22. Good luck finding 134 gas at your local gun show. Usually have to import that stuff. :roll:

Russ

Image

"Time has little to do with infinity and jelly doughnuts."
Author:  VT 1010 [ Wed Nov 16, 2005 2:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My first gas powered pistol - need some advice
Some people also use propane. It's pretty much the same thing, except the imported stuff has silicone lubricant in it. Picking up a small thing of propane at your local sporting goods store can be cheaper than buying an imported can at an airsoft shop. In order to use the standard propane can with your magazines, you'll need an adapter as well. However, it's a little bit more trouble to fool with (I've never used this method, myself). There are still plenty of online retailers (there maybe a store near you as well) that sell the standard cans of HFC22 for use with airsoft.

You also might want to get a can of 100% Silicone lubricant. GBBs need a lot of maintenance. The rubber seals on the magazines need to be lubed constantly (even if you don't shoot the gun). This is the ONLY thing you should be using with your airsoft guns.
----------------------

"It is like a finger pointing toward the moon. Don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all the heavenly glory."

-Bruce Lee
Author:  Noeland [ Wed Nov 16, 2005 4:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My first gas powered pistol - need some advice
Thanks for the replies. I appreciate it very much. I will be taking care of it. I own many real firearms and maintenance is something I enjoy doing. I am seriously considering becoming a gas gun collector now. They beat the hell out of the springers.
Njc-------------------I
Author:  Exoframe2 [ Wed Nov 16, 2005 9:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My first gas powered pistol - need some advice
Okay, bit of confusion with HFC22. Green gas is the stuff you want to use, but it's not 'technically' HFC22. HFC (properly known as HCFC22 or R22 in the automotive world) is banned for release in the US due to its ozone-attacking properties. Taiwanese green gas is 90% propane, by comparison a canister of Coleman propane fuel is 93% propane. Like VT said, you will need to use silicone oil with propane. The green gas has the lubricant mixed with it, but it is considerably more expensive. A propane adapter can be purchased online for about $28, and propane cans will cost about $3, as compared to $18-25 for green gas. I've given a lot of thought to one of these, but haven't got one yet. The only additional maintenance it would require is to add a few drops of silicone into the magazine every three fills or so.

One important note- make sure you store your mags with some gas in them, do not leave them completely dry, nor completely full. This will help keep the seals in good shape, and avoid leaks.
Exo2

My Props Website
Author:  Exoframe2 [ Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My first gas powered pistol - need some advice
CH2FCF3CH3... what's funny is that molecule can't exist. It violates the bonding laws of carbon. To have 3 Fluorine molecules bonded to a Carbon molecule in that sequence it would need 5 open valance points, but it only has four free.
CH2F-CF3-CH3
The center is bonded to the CH2F and CH3 molecules, thus only has 2 open valance points, so where does the extra Fluorine fit? :D Isn't chemistry fun?

It looks like this kind of green gas is a fluoropropane, rather than straight propane. It seems the 'Super Green Gas' is the exception to the rule. Here are the results of gas chromatograph/mass spectrometer tests which Carlton Chong had performed by the University of Toronto.

Green Gas

Propane

But I digress, propane is the core of most of the Taiwanese Green Gases, I won't say all, as we've seen an exception to this rule with the gas Rook mentioned. I'm curious as to what is actually in the can as that formula is a bit bogus. BUT! The fact remains the same, you'd do well to pick up some 100% silicone like Rook recommended, get yourself a propane adapter and a can of Coleman's camp fuel from Wal-Mart. That should keep you set for shooting for quite some time.
Exo2

My Props WebsiteEdited by: [url=http://p220.ezboard.com/bthealienslegacy.showUserPublicProfile?gid=exoframe2>Exoframe2[/url] at: 11/16/05 4:16 pm
Author:  Rook 3 [ Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My first gas powered pistol - need some advice
he he he... I don't believe the HFC stands for HydroFluroCarbons (sp) like the original item did.
Some of the older "green Gas" containers I have state that they are "CFC Free."

The chemical content of the standard "Super Power Green Gas" is...

CH2 FCF3 CH3 at a purity of 99.7%
Contains .005% water
.0001% acid
1.8% Silicon Oil

In terms of "What gas is out there" and "what should I use in my gun..."

"Green Gas" is a generic term used to describe any form of gas used in an airsoft gun, as well as a specific term to denote a particular strength of gas. Confused? Just wait, it gets worse. :)

There are several forms of "green gas" that either have been made in the past or are available now.

Listed in order of increasing power:

HFC134a.
HFC22. (commonly called 'Green Gas')
"Red" Gas. (Not available outside of Japan or possibly Hong Kong)
"Black" Gas. (as above)

Most JAPANESE manufactured guns (Tokyo Marui, KSC, Tanio Koba) are rated for 134 gas.

"Most" guns made in Tiawan/Hong Kong are rated for the generic "Green gas." Most KJW and some KWA pistols can use HFC22 with little or minimal ill effects. Full metal guns (or those with upgraded valve systems) can use 'green gas' without issue.

Red and Black (I'm not even 100% certain these gasses are still sold today...) are more powerful, and will destroy guns that are not upgraded to their fullest potential. Such upgrades include metal slide/frame, recoil springs, different valve systems, etc.

Strait propane can be used, but it has no lubricant in it, so it leads to wear on internal rubber parts. Some people are switching to propane because it's very inexpensive. I just buy green gas because I hate the idea of having to mess with silicone every time I want to shoot.

And "back in the day" there was FLON gas, which I believe (but don't quote me on that one) was a strait up refrigerant. Most of Marui's early gas guns such as their MP5 and Scorpion used FLON. Ask Alex, he remembers those days. :lol:

VT and Exo are correct about using 100% silicone lube on your guns. It works fine as a cleaner, and all purpose lube. Radio shack has a semi-liquid 100% Silicone gel that I use for both cleaning and lubing my gas guns (and for cleaning my AEGs as well). It's cheap and works fine.

Russ

Image

"Time has little to do with infinity and jelly doughnuts."
Author:  Exoframe2 [ Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: My first gas powered pistol - need some advice
Just wanted to be sure my explanation was clear, so I drew up a quick diagram.

[img]http://www.hooverae.com/upload/pics/molecule.jpg[/img]

Man, I'm pretty surprised I remembered this stuff. Been forever since I took a science class. Moot points, all of it, but it got me thinking, which is a pretty rare event :lol:
Exo2

My Props Website
Author:  Rook 3 [ Thu Nov 17, 2005 3:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My first gas powered pistol - need some advice
Quote:
Quote:CH2FCF3CH3... what's funny is that molecule can't exist. It violates the bonding laws of carbon.


LOL, you're right! Guess it just goes to show you can't believe most of what you read off the internet, or anything ON it. :lol:

Apparently there was a lazy chemist working for Omega Gas & Propellant Co. in Taiwan. :lol:

Thanks for clarifying!

Russ
Image

"Time has little to do with infinity and jelly doughnuts."
Author:  Noeland [ Thu Nov 17, 2005 6:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My first gas powered pistol - need some advice
Gotta say I'm with Rook on this one. I won't be putting straight propane in the gun. I will but the gas with lubricant in it too. Price isn't really an issue when it comes to keeping the guns in working order.

BUT, you guys have confused the hell out of me. WHAT do I buy for this thing? Are you guys telling me what I need isn't available in this country? Cause, even though I've read through the thread three times, I don't have any idea. :oops:

Is there an online seller for the gas I need?

Njc----------
Author:  Exoframe2 [ Thu Nov 17, 2005 7:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My first gas powered pistol - need some advice
Any of these will be fine for your gun:

HFC134a (Japanese gas)
Green gas (Taiwan gas)
Propane, with some silicone oil added every few mags

None of these will cause damage, and I've listed them in order from weakest to most powerful.

Keep in mind, you can't order green gas or propane through air shipment, ground only. I recommended the propane adapter for cost-effectiveness, since I just bought a 1000mL can of 'Super Green Gas' (yes, the CH2FCF3CH3 stuff!) for about $14 at my local airsoft shop :oops: Comparatively you can get twelve propane bottles (5820mL!!) for $30.

I think I'll be investing in one soon as we're finally getting into regular games, so our gas usage will ramp up quite a bit.

Online sellers for Green Gas:

Combat Depot

Airsoft Atlanta (Bottom of page)

JungleToy
Exo2

My Props WebsiteEdited by: [url=http://p220.ezboard.com/bthealienslegacy.showUserPublicProfile?gid=exoframe2>Exoframe2[/url] at: 11/17/05 3:11 pm
Author:  VT 1010 [ Thu Nov 17, 2005 10:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My first gas powered pistol - need some advice
The place I go to for HFC134a, Green Gas, and Silicone is www.airsoftextreme.com/.

So far I haven't had any problems with them and they ship pretty fast.
----------------------

"It is like a finger pointing toward the moon. Don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all the heavenly glory."

-Bruce Lee
Author:  Noeland [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My first gas powered pistol - need some advice
OK, I got the green gas over the weekend. How long do I hold the mag down on the can before it is full?

I am holding it down for a long time (60-70 seconds) and only getting like 6 shots out of it. Do I have a leak maybe??

I'm curious because if this is all I get out of one magazine it kinda sucks.

Njc------------------
Author:  Exoframe2 [ Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: My first gas powered pistol - need some advice
First off, you are filling it upside down. You hold the mag so the fill nozzle is facing up, and press the nozzle on the gas can down onto it. It should only take a few seconds, you'll see some gas leaking around the nozzle, when you see more liquid leaking out, stop. Kind of hard to explain, but you'll get the hang of it.
Exo2

My Props Website
Author:  Noeland [ Wed Dec 14, 2005 2:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: My first gas powered pistol - need some advice
ReallY? I guess I should feel stupid. :)

hahaha. That would explain the problem!!
Author:  MENATARMS [ Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: My first gas powered pistol - need some advice
Yea. It took a few mags of 3 shoters to figure this one out back when I first started. But I swear my KSC Glock is easier to fill than most GBB pistols for some reason. Of course, it's also the only GBB pistol I have with a broken seal in the magazine now.
[img]http://www.scifimilitary.com/MAA/SFMsig.jpg[/img]
Author:  Noeland [ Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My first gas powered pistol - need some advice
I really appreciate all the help you guys have offered. Thank you.
Njc----------
Author:  MENATARMS [ Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My first gas powered pistol - need some advice
Noeland .. VP-70M order bout coming close. ;)
[img]http://www.scifimilitary.com/MAA/SFMsig.jpg[/img]
Author:  Guardian Matsuo [ Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My first gas powered pistol - need some advice
Nice pistol, hope you get your gas problem sussed...:P

Frank Lloyd Wright designed that slide you know....:lol:

M
[img]http://hometown.aol.com/mattworsdell/images/mcorplogo10023.gif]
Author:  Noeland [ Wed Dec 14, 2005 10:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My first gas powered pistol - need some advice
Quote:
Quote:VP-70M order bout coming close


Cool. Can't wait!! Just give me some payment instructions (I do use paypal) and a send date and I'm there. :)

Quote:
Quote:Frank Lloyd Wright designed that slide you know


I dig the slide. :D One of the reasons I bought it.

Quote:
Quote:Nice pistol, hope you get your gas problem sussed


Pop a beano and I'm . . . OH, yeah, well the GUN works great now that I am using the system the proper way, thanks to Exo!! ;)

Njc--------------------
Author:  Rook 3 [ Thu Dec 15, 2005 6:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: My first gas powered pistol - need some advice
Quote:
Quote:OK, I got the green gas over the weekend. How long do I hold the mag down on the can before it is full?


As Exo already stated, you need to invert the mag, butt side up. Which just sounds bad when you say it like that. :shock:

Imagine the mag is basically an empty tube you're squirting a semi-liquid gas into the bottom of. If you shoot the gas up into the open tube, you're not going to get much in there. :)

Russ

Image

"Time has little to do with infinity and jelly doughnuts."
Author:  Exoframe2 [ Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: My first gas powered pistol - need some advice
A trick I use to get a good fill (which is sometimes an issue with KJ Works magazines) is to partially fill a magazine, dry-fire it off quickly, then refill it. This will chill the magazine, and it will take a bit more gas than when it is warm.

However, in the winter gas guns have problems. You can get more gas in a cold mag because it expands less than in a warm magazine. On the same note, cold gas in cold weather expands less since the temperature difference between the gas and the ambient temperature is less, producing less power behind the BB and recoil.

Thermodynamics lesson for the evening, thank you for coming :lol:
Exo2

My Props Website
Author:  Rook 3 [ Thu Dec 15, 2005 4:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My first gas powered pistol - need some advice
LOL! When we first started playing, we actually had to cancel one session after about 15 minutes, because temps were so cold that gas guns ceased to function. Completely. If you stuck the mag in your pocket for a couple minutes you'd maybe get one good shot, and one plunker, then nothing again.

And everything else? The springs in the guns were so cold and stiff that a gun that normally shot 80-100 feet only shot about 15 feet.

It was an exercise in futility. And not much exercise since it was so darn cold! :lol:

Russ

Image

"Time has little to do with infinity and jelly doughnuts."
Author:  Noeland [ Fri Dec 16, 2005 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My first gas powered pistol - need some advice
Well, the gun is working like a charm now guys.

I cannot wait to add to my gas gun collection. These things are way cooler than the electric guns, which make a ton of noises guns should not make! IMHO ;)

Njc--------------
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