The Aliens Legacy
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"I like to keep this handy..."
http://forum.alienslegacy.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2314		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  SSgt Burton [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:29 am ]
Post subject:  "I like to keep this handy..."
Ok no prop pictures, this is a plot discussion. :wink:

Hicks' Ithaca was cool- and the "Close Encounters" line is perfectly delivered...


But has been bugging me for awhile:

The Marines are told they cannot have any firing of their explosive tipped caseless superior firepower.

So what does Hicks do? He pulls out a nearly 200 year old weapon.

"Have no fear guys! Here's my ancient weapon that will protect our butts."

Frost reacts with confidence rather than saying "Are you kidding?"

We as the movie watchers have no problem with this, because to us the Ithaca is a modern day shotgun.

But to put this in context, how would any of you feel if you were doing a room clearance, and someone pulls out a flintlock pistol- and is dead serious about using it as a backup weapon? :shock: :?

Thoughts? :wink:
Author:  Adonis [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:34 am ]
Post subject: 
Having fired an ancient squirrel rifle... pretty confident.

If you've got a blackpower pistol, there would probably be a bit of laughter and shock if you drew it and pointed it at point blank range at the "target". They wouldn't expect you to have a real gun like that. So needless to say when it went off in their face...
Author:  joeranger [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:50 am ]
Post subject: 
The Seals and some sog guys are going back to the M14 for it's knockdown power.
If I thought a blunderbus would save my ass, I would carry it. Plus, it would be fun to shoot forks at someone :wink:
Author:  Cooter Davis [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:51 am ]
Post subject: 
Well all things considered everything is relative. As we all know to todays standards a flintlock would be completely useless in a combat situation, It takes forever to reload, requires quite a bit to do so, and isn't very acurate at long range, but a modern, our standards, shotgun will never go out of style. Its very destructive, at close range, it carrys multiple rounds, and is just handy to have. So lets take into consideration its a modern day, hicks time, reproduction and not a 200 year old weapon, its still is quite a destructive weapon. After all the modern military still uses the .50 caliber machine gun, and browning designed that close to 100 years ago. Just because its old, doesn't mean its worthless.
Author:  SSgt Burton [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:29 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
its a modern day, hicks time, reproduction and not a 200 year old weapon


Ahhh... Now there's something I hadn't thought of. You would think that something like that would belong in a museum- not on a Marine's back. :wink:

Joe- the M14 although old still fires the same type of ammo that most 21st century weapons fire. So it's not that far removed. I like your blunderbuss comment though. :lol:
Author:  sixty [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:54 am ]
Post subject: 
SSgt Burton wrote:
Joe- the M14 although old still fires the same type of ammo that most 21st century weapons fire. So it's not that far removed.


I beg to differ, good sir... Most western military issue personal weapons fire the 5.56mm round, not the badass 7.62mm that the M14 fires!
Author:  Fal Bowden [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:34 am ]
Post subject: 
Who says shotguns still don't exist in the future for recreational use? Hell, who is to say the PR isn't ancient by that stage? State of the art to us, but potentially decades old already by 2170...
Author:  Fal Bowden [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:36 am ]
Post subject: 
sixty wrote:
SSgt Burton wrote:
Joe- the M14 although old still fires the same type of ammo that most 21st century weapons fire. So it's not that far removed.


I beg to differ, good sir... Most western military issue personal weapons fire the 5.56mm round, not the badass 7.62mm that the M14 fires!


7.62 is a regular round in sniper rifles - so still used in almost all militaries to date ;)
Author:  SSgt Burton [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:28 pm ]
Post subject: 
sixty wrote:
SSgt Burton wrote:
Joe- the M14 although old still fires the same type of ammo that most 21st century weapons fire. So it's not that far removed.


I beg to differ, good sir... Most western military issue personal weapons fire the 5.56mm round, not the badass 7.62mm that the M14 fires!


I was waiting for that. :wink:

When I say "type" I wasn't talking about "caliber". There's a difference. I meant the same conventional ammunition that consists of a bullet round encased in a shell filled with gunpowder and a primer that must be struck by a firing pin.

As opposed to the Aliens era "10mm explosive tipped caseless ammo"...

Or say a 75 Cal musket ball for a flintlock. :wink:
Author:  PVB [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:44 pm ]
Post subject: 
Fal Bowden wrote:
Who says shotguns still don't exist in the future for recreational use? Hell, who is to say the PR isn't ancient by that stage? State of the art to us, but potentially decades old already by 2170...

Also, we don't know the history of the Hicks weapon; maybe the first time he went to use it he was laughed at, but then he showed the stopping power at point-blank range, so it was accepted as a 'last resort' weapon, similar to the VP?
Author:  sixty [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:50 pm ]
Post subject: 
SSgt Burton wrote:
I was waiting for that. :wink:

When I say "type" I wasn't talking about "caliber". There's a difference. I meant the same conventional ammunition that consists of a bullet round encased in a shell filled with gunpowder and a primer that must be struck by a firing pin.

As opposed to the Aliens era "10mm explosive tipped caseless ammo"...

Or say a 75 Cal musket ball for a flintlock. :wink:



Roger that, good point and well made, my mis-interpritation of your comment. I do know there is a difference between the caliber and 'type', old chap, wouldn't have been very good at my previous job if I didn't! :wink:



Fal Bowden wrote:
7.62 is a regular round in sniper rifles - so still used in almost all militaries to date ;)


True, but 'sniper rifles' are not 'most' military rifles... :P

(Sorry, couldn't resist, pedant mode deactivated!)



Anyhoo, I think I'd be quite happy with a decent shotty and some buckshot shells for it. Also:

SSgt Burton wrote:
As opposed to the Aliens era "10mm explosive tipped caseless ammo"...


I think it's a real shame the G11 never really took off.
Author:  Dropshipbob [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:11 pm ]
Post subject: 
In the movie novel, wasn't it described as a family hand-me-down?
An heirloom that he actually put to use?
Author:  Scapey [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:12 pm ]
Post subject: 
I'd imagine that shotguns do still have their uses in the Aliens timeframe... It may just be that Hicks' is an older weapon but there are still identically-functioning guns in common use.

After all - I'd trust a 200 year old gun more than I would 200 year old ammo!
Author:  Sidewinder [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:37 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hmmm, what would a 'modern' USCM shotgun look like?

SAS
Author:  Scapey [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:59 pm ]
Post subject: 
Possibly a bit like the grenade launcher from a Pulse Rifle, but backwards and with an added pistol grip?
Author:  birdie [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:28 pm ]
Post subject: 
You could make the same comment about the VP70's or Vasquez's S&W.

I always thought the shotgun was a kind of 'old ways are the best' comment from Cameron. Smartgun didn't help Drake much :)
Author:  tommin [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:02 pm ]
Post subject: 
If he was packing 00 Buck, a single shot from that weapon would be the equivalent of twelve rounds out of the VP70.

I like to think of it as a family heirloom. But yeah. If I was pulling a room clearance job, ordered to sling my weapon and my partner pulled an ice pick from his pocket in the same fashion and said,....

"I like to keep this handy,... for close encounters."

...that would be the guy that I would stay behind. :D
Author:  Dropshipbob [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:08 pm ]
Post subject: 
And they use shotguns in today's modern military...right? They even used them in Viet Nam. And the shotgun, overall, is how old...and they were using them even recently in the Middle East.
Author:  Glenn [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
Well according to there web site .... the remington model 10 was first produced in 1908 and is still in production..... the colt .45 model 1911 is still being produced.... so who knows in another 100 years or so they still will be in production.... :wink:
Author:  SSgt Burton [ Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:40 am ]
Post subject: 
Many good points all around!

Quote:
I do know there is a difference between the caliber and 'type', old chap, wouldn't have been very good at my previous job if I didn't!


Don't take me too seriously my friend; sometimes I get a little too dramatic. :wink: :)

I'm not too sure if everyone is getting the point I'm trying to make (I think Tom's got the right idea :wink: ).

One of the major themes on the movie is that the Marines are on the cutting edge of military might and firepower. This is echoed throughout the film with Frost's PTSF shirt- Burke telling Ripley the Marines are packing "state-of-the-art fire power" and of course Hudson's Ultimate Badasses speech. And yet are completely decimated by a technologically inferior (they use claws and bite for crying out loud) but overwhelmingly ferocious enemy.

This was an allegory of the US forces during the Vietnam war.

So the weaponry carried by the Marines is at the forefront of 22nd century firearms.

Maybe it would be a little more dramatic if I said a SWAT team member pulled out a sword instead?

I still think there is a bad joke in there somewhere. :wink:

The VP70 was choosen because it still had a futuristic look to it with it's polymer frame. It wasn't being presented as "old".

But I do agree that Vasquez's M39 is in the same boat with Hicks' shotty. And I do accept that shotguns would still be around in 200 years and probably would not change much as they haven't over the last 200 years.

So would Marines be allowed the latitude of carrying personal weapons in the field? Or did Cameron get that really wrong? I know this probably goes with Cameron's idea of the Marines being so far from any real chain of command, that they have been given certain liberties (the personalized armour and blatant lack of discipline).
Author:  Airborne Mike [ Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:10 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
So would Marines be allowed the latitude of carrying personal weapons in the field?

Yup seen that...hell I've DONE that. I jumped my H&K P7M13 pistol while in Petatwawa (AIRBORNE). Also carried my CAR15 on exercise in Wainwright (big training area in Canada). In the early 80's while posted to Germany, I had my HK91A2 in a rifle case inside my armored recce vehicle, a Canadian Lynx for "just in case" the commies invaded the west. In fact, while on exercise in Germany, I use to have live ammo on my person because the Baader-Meinhof gang a section of the Red Army Faction http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army_Faction was a very likely threat against NATO troops. On all bugouts or "alerts", because of my position in brigade recce and our first job was Traffic Control Points to guide the brigade off the base, I always had 200 rds of linked 7.62 NATO and 100 rounds of 9mm ball just in case the quartermaster was delayed in dropping off ammo for us. Always nice to look after yourself (just like Vasquez) for ammo and parts to make your weapon go bang. For those fellow Marines that have met me & feel they know me well enough (lucky people :P ) can attest this is my character.
So getting back on topic, hell yes, a top notch fighting unit will ALWAYS have soldiers carry personal weapons while at war. It's been going on for years in the past and will continue well into the future. As long as these soldiers are doing their job and carrying what is required of them, leaders have more important things to do then nit pick their switched on troops for carrying extra weapons, be it modern or obsolete.

Mike
Author:  joeranger [ Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:25 am ]
Post subject: 
I see this in the future...
18 bullets at once, damn!
http://www.mr40mm.com/index_files/Page618.htm
Author:  SgtTony [ Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:22 am ]
Post subject: 
They mention the shotguns in the book Earth Hive also stating that is the minimum weapon that would pierce the bugs armor.

You see in the movie that Gorman's VP rounds do not pierce the skull, yet Vasquez's point blank do take apart the bugs neck and face.

I'm wondering where I also got the impression that the Hicks shotgun was a family heirloom.
Any ideas?
Author:  Scapey [ Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:44 am ]
Post subject: 
It was in the novelisation, was it not?
Author:  Russ Krook III [ Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:53 pm ]
Post subject: 
Are you sure the shotgun DOESN'T fire "modern" ammunition?
Maybe they're 12 gauge caseless rounds. Do we ever see spent shells ejected out the bottom?
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