Same prop, different lighting. Photo courtesy Harry Harris archives.
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| Brown Bess vs. Olive Drab http://forum.alienslegacy.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13839 |
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| Author: | Willie Goldman [ Sun Nov 10, 2013 7:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Brown Bess vs. Olive Drab |
Same prop, different lighting. Photo courtesy Harry Harris archives.
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| Author: | Bug Stomper [ Sun Nov 10, 2013 7:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Brown Bess vs. Olive Drab |
Nice!  Is there any more info on this box? Cheers, Stefan |
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| Author: | ilovethecorps [ Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:14 pm ] |
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Only shown for a fraction of a second when Hicks opens the Robot Sentry box... Lovely detail... I wonder what it was... |
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| Author: | PVB [ Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Brown Bess vs. Olive Drab |
Either to hold the ammo drum or maybe the optical sight? http://www.ima-usa.com/german-mg-34-42- ... green.html http://www.germanmilitaria.com/Heer/photos/H033170.html |
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| Author: | SSgt Burton [ Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Brown Bess vs. Olive Drab |
I would have guessed the box for the ammo drum as well. Kevin |
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| Author: | Harry Harris [ Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:23 pm ] |
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Back on topic that's a very clear indication of how lighting and other factors (type of film or other (digital) media etc.) can make the same piece look very different. Harry |
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| Author: | ilovethecorps [ Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Brown Bess vs. Olive Drab |
I know we talk about it all the time... But this really shows the effects... It's pretty amazing how OD it all looks... |
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| Author: | demoncase [ Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:36 am ] |
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Perception is reality folks- that's what it comes back to 
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| Author: | SGM Baldwin [ Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Brown Bess vs. Olive Drab |
I sometimes wonder if it was simply a happy coincidence that Brown Bess came out looking OD on film or if it was by design. |
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| Author: | ilovethecorps [ Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:45 am ] |
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Yes Dom... I did wonder that... I was thinking that last night... It might have been easier just to OD everything though... They got it all looking very glossy as well... |
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| Author: | gunny63 [ Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Brown Bess vs. Olive Drab |
I can see the slight hint of green but is still more brown to me! |
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| Author: | Adie1979 [ Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:49 pm ] |
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Original pots with the smudge on the side showing how brown it really is  Its worth bearing in mind the brown bess name comes from the woodwork colouring on a brown bess musket so is unlikely to be OD, red, pink, battleship grey or any other colour. Although it's level of brown-ness may have changed over the yearsAttachment: Humbrol170.jpg [ 146.93 KiB | Viewed 7530 times ] |
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| Author: | Adie1979 [ Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
better original pic which shows the OD nature of lighting but its still brown Attachment: IMG_8304_wm.jpg [ 65.63 KiB | Viewed 7519 times ] |
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| Author: | Adie1979 [ Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:33 pm ] |
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Just to sound really sad. I'm viewing that last pic on a laptop and if you move your head up and down so the brightness of the screen changes, you can see how it varies from brown to OD
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| Author: | Chef [ Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:48 pm ] |
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I have here a picture of a sample of BB sent to me by a very kind chap on this very forum from his very own pot. It was a very small sample as he didn't want to waste it, so I am in his eternal debt.  BB sample is in the middle. The RAL charts are my own. I think a number of people on the RPF did various colour analysis (or what ever the plural of that is) of it and came up with the definitive RGB values of the paint itself. The RGB transformation of those values into RAL codes also bring up 7013 as the closest colour match to Brown Bess. This is my PR painted in it, as mixed by a proper automotive company. They don't get it wrong!  Interestingly, it looks nothing like this in the flesh, and when pictured in different light it looks different again. There was also some rumour over on the RPF that when Humbrol released it's Super range of paints, they changed the composition of BB ever so slightly that the shade didn't match the original and was more 'brown'. http://www.therpf.com/f9/two-versions-brown-bess-51675/ So who knows! The argument will go round in circles no doubt. Just to add for a sense of completeness. If you round down the RGB values to the lower range, you still end up with RAL 7013. The Pantone references do vary slightly using these values. |
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| Author: | Adie1979 [ Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Brown Bess vs. Olive Drab |
It maybe the answer lies not with trying to match the colour, but how we alter the applied colour. When I touched up my belt tool I mixed a colour as close to BB as I could. Then using an airbrush I slowly darkened the colour as appropriate to try and get the best match, and weather it at the same time. Could probably use the grate polish as used on armour to help darken it up as well. In addition the answer may simply be a colour approximate to the original that has a distinct brown hue. As supposed to a base colour of green etc. Just a thought |
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| Author: | Chef [ Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:21 am ] |
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You're probably right. Paint being the notoriously fickle thing that it is, application and base coat could well indeed alter its final look. But then maybe it's just a case of accepting that it's a discontinued colour and everyone is going to have to work with some form of alternative, so inevitably there is going to be a shade difference of some description. Getting wound up that people are one Pantone reference shade out really isn't constructive, and in the grand scheme of all the other little bits that are ever so slightly wrong with the stuff we have (bearing in mind none of us are wearing screen used kit) is it really such an issue? I have to say I'm happy that the 7013 I have is as near as dammit is to swearing to the Brown Bess sample I have and is commensurate with all the given evidence out there including the Mk1 eyeball. |
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| Author: | Adie1979 [ Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:35 am ] |
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The first question is do we want it to be the actual colour, or the screen colour? With the advances in camera technology there is no way we can replicate the green tinge. What makes it worse is the original pictures with a yard stick beside the item definetly have a grey tinge that can be seen quite clearly and has distorted the image, it doesn't mean the camera body is grey. My pulse rifle is Geordie's original painted right back at the beginning of marine costuming. It's been painted brown bess (although I don't know which version) and using a basic Iphone camera picks out the brown. It doesn't look OD in any light because its been taken with a modern camera. Forgive my star wars lounge pants  Attachment: New Image.JPG [ 197.55 KiB | Viewed 7446 times ] Hence the reason why I've asked Harry for a modern picture of the ab pad, we can't rely on pictures that are at least ten years old or more. Revisiting the original items with a modern camera would be a good idea. The OD tinge was added by the film format as we know, but a modern camera will pick of the brown everytime. So the question is - do we want it movie colour or real colour? I'm currently working on a costume that again, is only seen at night, for me to use the actual colours would be too garish so I've gone for darker shades because that's what people expect to see. |
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| Author: | nocternus [ Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
For me it was how it was seen on screen rather than what it actually was, its like i still Paint the Original Enterprise white even though it was light grey as thats how it appeared on the show, but like i always say its up to the person wearing it, Its your kit |
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| Author: | Chef [ Thu Apr 10, 2014 11:30 am ] |
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I think you have to try and replicate what people remember in their minds eye. I'll blaspheme and use Stormtroopers as an example here. Everyone remembers them as the pristine shiny white faceless crack troops of the Empire. Not with gaffa tape holding them together and bits dropping off. But that's what they were on screen, despite us not seeing what is clearly in front of our eyes. The 'suspension of belief' I believe the term is called. But Kris is right, it's your kit, you do as you please with it. As it stands, it's all well and good saying it has to be Brown Bess, But exactly WHAT is that? We know we can't get it any more, so have to use alternative methods. The credible alternative has been shown to be RAL 7013 (not by me I hasten to add, by my peers before me, I merely agree with their analysis). Incidentally the Colour 7013 is called BROWN/GREY. No reference to green at all and doesn't even fall in the green section of the RAL codes. If you don't agree with it, that's cool. But at least it would be helpful if you specify what you think it should actually be in some definitive terms, rather than 'slightly more brown than green', because by keeping it vague, it's only going to lead to more confusion. People mixing the wrong paint, not getting the right shade, ongoing arguments etc. No one will ever agree, because each thinks they are right and everyone should follow their lead. I know my colour is NOT Brown Bess. But it's close enough. I do have a RAL colour chart which I'm quite happy to send out for side by side comparison. |
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| Author: | Ttaskmaster [ Thu Apr 10, 2014 11:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
What Kris said. Screen Used is Brown Bess and hard to come by. Screen Accurate is Olive Drab, so I always go for that... I won't even start on the many, many different shades that are all officially designated as Olive Drab, either!! If you're happy, that's all that really matters. |
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| Author: | Adie1979 [ Thu Apr 10, 2014 11:49 am ] |
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I'm not sure where I've suggested anything that makes this vague, only to start a debate over the subject and they're my own opinions. Including saying I have altered a costume to be more screen accurate than actual colouring. Specific dedicated forums such as this have a knock on effect to others, and will be used as a reference point. If we the dedicated can't come to a solution then no one will. Personally, with the right supporting evidence, I don't mind which colour it is as it's nothing but the use of a paint can. So regardless of what you would paint your own kit, and I agree everyone can do what they like, what are people's opinion to create some kind of approved practice for those that wish to copy the film accurately. Because there will be people who come on the forum and ask. If we can get a general consensus over how people feel then we can move onto the colour. Predictably it may be the screen used look prevails, and the colour you're suggesting Rob is the closest, but let's offer consideration to the dedicated on the forum and ask everyone's opinion |
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| Author: | nocternus [ Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:11 pm ] |
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Thats my point Ade its something that everyone will have thier own opinion on and half will say one thing half will say another and i think most will lean towards the colour of the gear they already have but that could create a practice that may not be right if you get my meaning? |
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| Author: | Adie1979 [ Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:16 pm ] |
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Absolutely Kris, and if nothing comes of it then it's not a problem It's worth remembering I'm not trying to create a standard within the UKCM as thats not how the forum operates. And it doesnt matter what anyone has currently or in the futureI'm thinking more of a newbee coming onto the forum and asking the usual colour question. It would be nice to come back with options rather than the usual vaque answer we currently have and the person left none the wiser |
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| Author: | nocternus [ Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:19 pm ] |
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It could be a case of everyone agreeing its grey but it was actually black and one turns up in black everyone else grey it would be percived as the person who is right has got it wrong lol Never assumed it was about the UKCM as this is in the ready line  Again some want SA some want prop accurate some dont care its hard to have a standard when so many dont agree, all those in the SA camp will say its OD all those in PA will say BB all the others will say whatever
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