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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:19 pm 
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Ttaskmaster wrote:
I would be interested to know what made the X-Boxes so much more popular than other consoles, though...


It was price at the start (for me at least, plus I was a big xbox fan anyway).
PS3's were quite a bit more when then they came out, still are really.

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 Post subject: Re: The Xbox One
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:29 pm 
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Osmotic wrote:
Woody which PC manufacturing company do you work for ? :P :lol:

Whichever one makes the prettiest peripherals, usually! :D

As I said, I don't actually hold anything against consolers, but since I fall outside the console markets I think it's a little sad that the low-tech fixed spec market of gaming dictates to the higher tech evolving one, rather than the latter driving the former forward. Kinda like Bugatti being told they're not allowed to make a car that goes faster than a Ford Probe!

I also kinda laugh at the competition between the big two and how games are sometimes exclusive to only one or the other of them... but also available on PC, regardless. It ceases to be funny when it's only on the one, though as the point of a PC is that it can handle any of them. The only competition there is really between component maufacturers and you have a choice rather than just whatever they give you.

I think that's why MS bombed this time around - They're dictating to their customers how they can and cannot play, in order to force sales of new stuff while Sony is providing a comparatively open process.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:35 pm 
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MS and Sony should stop being little kids, team up on the ultimate console and watch the money roll in...

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 Post subject: Re: The Xbox One
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:57 pm 
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Ttaskmaster wrote:
I think that's why MS bombed this time around - They're dictating to their customers how they can and cannot play, in order to force sales of new stuff while Sony is providing a comparatively open process.


You've hit it there - that is the crux really. People will still buy it though. Its like apple products, the true believers will buy it regardless of features

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:45 pm 
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The_Fireball wrote:
People will still buy it though. Its like apple products, the true believers will buy it regardless of features

I know... depressing, isn't it. I mean, here I am, PC the size of a planet and people want me to only play Solitaire on it!! :lol:

88reaper88 wrote:
MS and Sony should stop being little kids, team up on the ultimate console and watch the money roll in...

Isn't that what the Steam Box is trying to do? Bypass the playground and offer an open (and upgradable) console to grown-ups?
Long as games are properly ported to PC as well, whoever makes them will have my money.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:31 pm 
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No idea what the Steam Box is mate.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:00 pm 
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88reaper88 wrote:
No idea what the Steam Box is mate.

Basically an x86 PC in console format, designed by Valve/Steam to connect to and run games via Steam. One big selling point is its capacity to upgrade components, meaning you'll get better performance a lot sooner than other consoles have thus far managed.

I hear varying rumours of a $499 price tag, so about £300, along with conflicting whispers over whether it will or will not have further PC functionality, connect to online TV/Netflix/X-Box Live, etc, or just be a dedicated gaming machine. However, things like 2-3TB SSD hard drives have been mentioned and I do know you can choose your OS - Linux and Windoze being the prime faves.

'Everything you love about a PC in a console'... although I believe the CPU, GPU and RAM are lower-spec than the X-One/PS4's forthcoming AMD Special. The aim is to give customers choices, including that of moving away from Microshagged

I like the idea that it could direct games back toward primarily PC standards, while still giving people options.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 4:15 pm 
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A 2-3TB SSD in a machine costing £300? I'm sorry but that is some serious cloud cuckoo land dreaming there. A 256GB SSD is around the £130 on it's own.

The new generation of consoles are PCs. x86 processors in both. Development between PC and the consoles from Sony and Microsoft is going to be pretty simple, adjusting more to the RAM availability and latencies. X1 games run a virtual machine on the console, so it should be possible to adjust the hardware in the future without breaking compatibility, much like your older iPhone games run on newer handsets.

I'm not sure where you are coming from when you say about directing games back towards PC standards, Woody? Looking at the range of CPU and videocard performance coming through in the Steam hardware survey is anything but standard. And this is the PC owners who have Steam...

http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey

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As I said, I don't actually hold anything against consolers, but since I fall outside the console markets I think it's a little sad that the low-tech fixed spec market of gaming dictates to the higher tech evolving one, rather than the latter driving the former forward. Kinda like Bugatti being told they're not allowed to make a car that goes faster than a Ford Probe!


I'm going to pick apart this analogy a little. Your top of the line, twin Titan GPUs PC is a Bugatti of performance, but it is a case of throwing horsepower at the situation, but I liken consoles to motorbikes. They've dropped the need to carry passengers, stuff in the boot etc, in the aim of performing on the road. You can't take your family along, but you'll have a blast on the road. ;)

A developer could make a game that runs the top end of PC performance. You do see that when Crytex and Epic demonstrate the power and features of their engines. But they won't sell many copies of such a game as the percentage of the market that has the means to run it is but a fraction.

I would like to see a mid range PC from seven years ago doing Halo 4 or The Last of Us.

One path of development I am finding interesting is the combination of a PC and a small Android set-top box with Nvidia's tegra4 chipset. You have your beast of a PC out of sight, then, when you want to game on the TV, the android box links to your PC and streams the game through your network.

PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWERS!
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 Post subject: Re: The Xbox One
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:58 pm 
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A 2-3TB SSD in a machine costing £300?

No no nooooooo... Crimony, that was a top of the line optional extra/maximum upgrade!!
I believe it comes with 120GB as standard. There was a sort of pre-order site (£200 deposit, BTW) I found on Google yesterday, but I cleared my History.
Hell,if it came with a 3TB SSD for £300, I'd buy six and cannibalise them myself, selling the remnants for parts!!!

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Development between PC and the consoles from Sony and Microsoft is going to be pretty simple, adjusting more to the RAM availability and latencies.

As long as I can play offline without having to use a bastard controller, I'll be happy with that.

My concern, as usual, is the newer tech becomng the standard because it's flashy and new, rather than because it works better. I have this issue with touchscreen keyboards, for example, preferring a physical keyboad on my phone. There are so many people who also hate touchscreens, they make clip-on boards and there are even websites dedicated to people's typos... yet everyone soldiers, buying what they think is their only option, to the point where the good stuff stops being made.
The joy of PC gaming for me is not only having one machine that does everything, but choosing how it does it. I can tweak the clocks, configure my own controls, get input devices that fit me the best and set it up for my own comfort.
If I get a console, I get whatever they stick me with and that's it.

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X1 games run a virtual machine on the console, so it should be possible to adjust the hardware in the future without breaking compatibility, much like your older iPhone games run on newer handsets.

Can the average user easily expand the memory or put a faster processor in there, then? I know the intention is that they shouldn't have to, but if games end up like A:CM it might come down to that (assuming they don't release the next Next Gens early enough).

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I'm not sure where you are coming from when you say about directing games back towards PC standards, Woody?

Well, PC levels, rather than Standards, for the reasons you mentioned (there isn't one).
Speaking to a few devs from different studios, their opinion thus far has been that they're having to hold back on putting some really great stuff in their games because while PC can handle it, consoles were stuck using crappy old hardware. They only reason they liked doing console games was that they all used the one same standard across the board for every game.


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I liken consoles to motorbikes.

Well I did say I don't know much about cars, heh heh!! :lol:

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They've dropped the need to carry passengers, stuff in the boot etc, in the aim of performing on the road. You can't take your family along, but you'll have a blast on the road. ;)

OK, so your twin Titan rig is a combination of Blackbird and Rocket III - Speed, power and insane torque, with some luggage space and a pillion seat.

The more affordable high end rigs are like VFR800s or Pans, with Rocket engines. Almost insane performance, lots of great features

A run of the mill Gaming rig with 2nd hand parts is an FJ1200 - Big, comfy, powerful enough, loads of space, bags of handling and a fair bit of luxury all for a surprisingly low price because previous owners have gone for some latest must-have, when the FJ did perfectly well (or bloody good, if tweaked a touch).

Consoles have always been a bit like customed Bandits or R1s - Rev and race hoolie bikes. Almost no comfort features left, even if they came with them to begin with and only suited to one function.
These newer consoles are sounding like mid-2000s Fireblades (which many buy just "coz it's a 'Blaaaaaaaaaaade, innit?") - Beefed up Bandits mixed with a little VFR800 comfort and functionality.
Also - Typically outperformed by more general bikes ridden by more skilled riders :P

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A developer could make a game that runs the top end of PC performance. You do see that when Crytex and Epic demonstrate the power and features of their engines.
But they won't sell many copies of such a game as the percentage of the market that has the means to run it is but a fraction.

That's what Low Settings and Overclocking are for! :lol:
Few people can afford Bugattis or can fly private planes too, but they still make 'em... Those that REALLY want to play the game will save up to upgrade and so the games drive the market. Higher demand, lower prices, etc.

But there are probably enough users with rigs that could still cope with the High-to-Ultra band to make it worthwhile. Instead, they've seemingly dialled everything back to the budget-ish level I run, to accomodate the bigger market of consoles. I reckon if they didn't do that quite so much, consoles would have beefed up a lot earlier.
Heck, even my old old old rig handled A:CM with better graphics than an X360. As of September, there also wasn't a single game on SysReq's Lab that I couldn't run and remain at least above the minimum specs.

Now, with the recent update, consoles are back up with PCs, which is cool but how long before they're naff again? How long before people are buying PCs just for the performance and plugging joypads into them again? If there's a high demand for high-end components, prices will drop and/or cheaper better versions will appear.

It's not just the rigs, though, it's the games as well - The need for immense games that require entire keyboards to control, because there's so much you can do has given way to whole genres of dull, boring shooters where you only need a few buttons and they all do the same things. Granted, that's all some people want and it makes the dev simpler. Not saying every game has to be über, but it'd be nice to see some of that coming out in places other than on Kickstarter.
Some fantastic games, like Dragon Age, were slated by consolers because the controller was too limited for a game like that and they had no other option.

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I would like to see a mid range PC from seven years ago doing Halo 4 or The Last of Us.

So would I!!

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You have your beast of a PC out of sight, then, when you want to game on the TV, the android box links to your PC and streams the game through your network.

I wonder if the über-fussy gamers would notice any lag between devices...
But the PC can still be sat and gamed at, or used for all the other functions, yes? If so, then that is indeed a very cool idea and right up the alley of having the options I love so much.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:11 pm 
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If Woody argues his point long enough, people who value a large screen on their phone will realise that touchscreen keyboards are silly and people who want an appliance experience when they play video games will realise how pointless game consoles are.

Or we will conclude that people have different priorities and preferences. :)


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:18 pm 
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But, on the other hand: Bloody ell, console games are expensive now. Preorders for all announced games for both PS4 and Xbone are £54.99 on Amazon.co.uk ... Or are they guessing, hoping the RRP for the games will be less?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:13 pm 
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All guessing atm. Only the consoles themselves have a price.

I know where Woody is coming from. There is a sense of achievement in getting a great PC working exactly how you want it. I've got some nice new Corsair RAM sitting next to me, can't wait to get home and rip the POS unmatched pair out of the machine and see how it takes to the new sticks. Still researching how to get XMBC set-up so we can digitise our DVDs and have that all in one place. PC gaming is something that if you put effort in, you reap the rewards. Much like any hobby.

Multiplatform development is always going to be a compromise. Lack of RAM on the outgoing generation limiting the size of worlds. Virtual sticks and buttons on mobile devices. I can't play Beat Hazard any more on my tablet after having played it on the PC with a xbox controller.

As for the PC/Android box combo, check out nvidia's project SHIELD.

http://shield.nvidia.com/

Now, that is too expensive atm, as it adds in all the screen and sound gubbins, but MadCatz showed an Android box at E3 with the same chipset, so should do the same as the SHIELD, only plugged into the TV instead of portable.

http://www.techradar.com/news/gaming/co ... es-1158291

I do remember nvidia saying in a video that the controller input lag was less than what is currently happening with the wireless pads on the consoles.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:31 pm 

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Magnus wrote:
My biggest issues with both new consoles is apparently there is ZERO backwards capability...like really?


Well that idea looks like being a real winner then! :( I remember that being one of the plus points of the Nintendo Wii. At least you could play all of your GameCube games on it. Some classic games like Metroid, Rogue Squadron, Resident Evil (remake) etc. never go out of style. I found that on my 360 some classic XBOX games would play but not as well as on the original console so I ended up playing them on the old machine. My PS3 would play PS1 games but not PS2 (I think only the 60Gb versions did that).

Backwards compatibility is surely a no-brainer as it can only help sales for a newly launched console. I'm sure that it Microsoft and Sony wanted to include this feature that could do easily but would rather we pay through the nose for the latest thing. As many people know most launch games are not that great with usually only a few really good titles worth getting. I will be looking at both consoles with interest but won't be rushing to the shops on launch day!


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:39 pm 
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Backwards compatibility is a cost. It is a big brainer. Say adding the 360's SoC to the X1 adds $25 to the cost manufacturing, pushing your price higher, putting off purchases. So no, having backwards compatibility does not only help sales.

This happened to the original model of the PS3. It had the PS2 SoC built in. The PS3 cost way too much at launch. Eventually the part (and some input ports) had to be removed to get the cost down to a point the general public would accept.

As for the Wii, it uses the same chipset family as the Gamecube, only faster.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:20 pm 
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BurntKona wrote:
Multiplatform development is always going to be a compromise. Lack of RAM on the outgoing generation limiting the size of worlds. Virtual sticks and buttons on mobile devices. I can't play Beat Hazard any more on my tablet after having played it on the PC with a xbox controller.

But just like with backwards compatability, even the high end games have lower settings, usually. If they need to add an ultra-low for X360s, fine. But to exclude the PC market, or just do a crappy port, when the dev for it is free and already exists (because that's what it was written on to begin with), why not make a few extra bucks from the 2-10% (depending on which game) PC market?

If you like touchscreens and Swype, great. No worries, you're sorted. But if not, then what? Shut up and waste your money on a piece of fucking shite that is more hassle than anything else??!! If people do have different priorities and preferences, as you say, why are they not being catered for?
As it happens, I did find a phys-board phone with large screen :P

As I said, I'm about having the choice, not just doing what everyone else is doing because some high-profile company tells them it's the only way... Why is it the only way, do they tell us? Because 'everyone else is doing it'... might as well tell me your *religion* is the only correct one... oh, wait. :D

So yeah... pro-choice.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:54 pm 
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Companies' offerings and actions are tailored to what they think will make most profit with the least risk. This is the way of our world. Should it be? Maybe not. But ... it is how it is.

That goes both for both games and phones.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:42 am 
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I know. We speak about this every six months, I think.
And again, so long as options are available, I'm fine with that.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:38 am 
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Being the most casual of casual gamers, price clinches it for me....So when the 360 finally gasps it's last, it'll probably be a PS4- which, truth told, is the reason why I switched from PS2 to 360 when the time came.

I'm sure there's some hardcore 'Xbox' true believers that'll buy it no matter if MS made it out of dried leaves and used condoms. Heh.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:40 pm 
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demoncase wrote:
Being the most casual of casual gamers, price clinches it for me....So when the 360 finally gasps it's last, it'll probably be a PS4- which, truth told, is the reason why I switched from PS2 to 360 when the time came.

I'm sure there's some hardcore 'Xbox' true believers that'll buy it no matter if MS made it out of dried leaves and used condoms. Heh.


I think that goes with the territory. I guarantee had the roles been reversed, and Sony were the one getting the backlash, a percentage of PS3 owners would just buy the PS4 no matter what the issues were.

There's a lot of people out there scared of the thought of changing their brand, despite the fact that without the backwards compatibility, in this case it makes little difference if you switched brands or not. Xbox One or PS4, you still won't be able to play your current collection of games on them.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:15 pm 
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BurntKona wrote:
I know where Woody is coming from. There is a sense of achievement in getting a great PC working exactly how you want it.


Or, in my case, the dissatisfaction of having widows update completely SCREW your build, so the bloody thing won't even boot up.

Sooooo pi$$ed at Micro$oft right now. :(

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:00 pm 
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Russ Krook III wrote:
Or, in my case, the dissatisfaction of having widows update completely SCREW your build, so the bloody thing won't even boot up.

Sooooo pi$$ed at Micro$oft right now. :(


The last update killed my mum and dad's PC too, luckily it decided to start up again a day or two after but all the documents and programs had been deleted :(

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:10 pm 
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Do MS do the same thing with console updates?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:55 pm 
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Console updates don't usually mess up the system as the thing is as it came in the box, whereas many PC owners mod their systems, and, much as I don't like supporting Microsoft, the likelyhood is PC updates will not be able to take into account every single possible PC mod people can make to their machines.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:22 am 
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Well, there is a degree of cross-over, as the last PS3 firmware update caused some systems to brick. The common factor in the bricked system were where the users had upgraded the hard drive. The update has been pulled now.

http://community.us.playstation.com/t5/ ... p/40712247

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:12 pm 
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One of Microsoft's last Vista updates hosed my laptop. After the update, the thing would
bluescreen and reboot about every 24 minutes. :(

The bad thing was that unlike a lot of Vista users, I was perfectly happy with the OS
and it worked perfectly... until Microsoft "updated" it.

Luckily, 7 had been running mostly problem free on the laptop.

Still need to get my pinball PC squared away though. :(

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