The discussion of the Alien series of films and the props used in them is the aim, but if it's got Big Bugs and Big Guns, then they are welcome too!





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 Post subject: Re: Ron Cobb APC modeled by Andrew Pace
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:14 pm 
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Beautiful work!

It has the air to me being a mobile weapons platform more than and APC.
Something you go into urban environments to root out problems!

Yellowjacket wrote:
Andrew works for EA Utah where he worked on a NERF™ first person shooter game for the Wii. Just for fun, he mocked up the APCs NERF-style™.

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EXCELLENT!

I love the red-tipped weapons- so you don't get mistaken for a real APC by law enforcement!

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 Post subject: Re: Ron Cobb APC modeled by Andrew Pace
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:09 am 
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Great thread. Really nice work by all.


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 Post subject: Re: Ron Cobb APC modeled by Andrew Pace
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:26 pm 
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Just stumbled across this kit of the Razorback seems to be using some of the same artwork on their site.

http://www.bambammodelproductions.com/blog/category/news/

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 Post subject: Re: Ron Cobb APC modeled by Andrew Pace
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:49 pm 
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Yellowjacket...they are amazing. Isn't it incredible that by arranging virtual pixels, if you have the talent, that you can create something like the razorback which can exist in virtual 3D. You are an artist.

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 Post subject: Re: Ron Cobb APC modeled by Andrew Pace
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:05 am 
Bacon Rapscallion
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Winch wrote:
Just stumbled across this kit of the Razorback seems to be using some of the same artwork on their site.

http://www.bambammodelproductions.com/blog/category/news/



Wow. Just plain stolen without so much as a request. He doesn't even bother to take Andrew's name off the image and he borrowed my 'Razorback' nickname.


Last edited by Yellowjacket on Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Ron Cobb APC modeled by Andrew Pace
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:05 am 
Bacon Rapscallion
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Hicks27 wrote:
Yellowjacket...they are amazing. Isn't it incredible that by arranging virtual pixels, if you have the talent, that you can create something like the razorback which can exist in virtual 3D. You are an artist.



Thank you, but my brother Andrew did the modeling of the Razorback.


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 Post subject: Re: Ron Cobb APC modeled by Andrew Pace
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:20 am 
Bacon Rapscallion
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Wow...BamBam is selling it on Frontier Models and Monsters in Motion without so much as a 'thank you'.


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 Post subject: Re: Ron Cobb APC modeled by Andrew Pace
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:23 am 
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Why did you guys have to show me this I just spent the last 6 months building the original APC, that Cobb Concept is calling my name Lol!

7.JPG
7.JPG [ 145.78 KiB | Viewed 11541 times ]


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 Post subject: Re: Ron Cobb APC modeled by Andrew Pace
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:25 am 
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Yellowjacket wrote:
Wow...BamBam is selling it on Frontier Models and Monsters in Motion without so much as a 'thank you'.

Sounds like you have a pretty good case of some kind and since it's against a business there should be some money to he had!

Think you guys need to get lawyered up and at the very least send them a Cease and Desist Letter.

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 Post subject: Re: Ron Cobb APC modeled by Andrew Pace
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:31 am 
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Yellowjacket - is he using your renders to produce the kit? Is he a member here?

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 Post subject: Re: Ron Cobb APC modeled by Andrew Pace
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:01 am 
Bacon Rapscallion
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Willie Goldman wrote:
Yellowjacket - is he using your renders to produce the kit? Is he a member here?


As near as we can figure Dave at Bam Bam had some guy named 'Jay' do modeling off of Andrew's orthographics. The completed model that they're selling has details that are found only in Andrew's Interpretation of the Ron Cobb design. Andrew is mentioned as 'Drew' on only one of six sites we've found touting the release of this model, but his last name is never used (though it appears on all of the images that they took from here or Andrew's blogspot).

As for the name 'M579-D10 Razorback', that was my creation, as the original sketch by Cobb was simply titled 'APC'. As far as I'm aware, the sketch had no other working name. I chose Razorback, just because it had that wide, brutish aspect of a wild boar and I liked the name. The M579-D10 designation was based on the numbering traditions as laid out in the Aliens Technical Manual, which I also studied extensively when configuring weight, armor, firepower and every other piece of information for the stat sheets. The '10' in D10 was a subtle tribute to my favorite warplane, the A-10 Warthog (named for yet another feral pig).

I contacted Frontier Models and Monsters in Motions and explained to them that they're using images directly from previous posts both here and off of Andrew's blogspot. They didn't even bother removing Andrew's signature from the modeling images and my stat sheet. They simply told us to 'talk to Dave' and the model is already being shipped from BAM BAM to Frontier Models, Monsters in Motion and other model retailers where they have been pre-selling it for months.

I've been out of work for more months than I care to think about, and these guys are selling our work using our own images for the advertising. It's completely put me off any future Alien related projects and I've shelved everything that I was working on.


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 Post subject: Re: Ron Cobb APC modeled by Andrew Pace
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:06 pm 
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You might be able to contact a voulenteer lawyer for the arts. There are lawyers who work pro bono in every city if a artist, artisan, or craftsman, who is unemployesd as you say and has been aggrieved or is being taken advantage of. In most cases the point is not to try and seek compensation (who wouldnt...) but to stop the unlawful use of your intellectual property without your consent.

It is obvious the artwork is full of proprietary elements that were reproduced unaltered in this product.


M


**edited on request**

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Last edited by Matsuo on Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Ron Cobb APC modeled by Andrew Pace
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:12 pm 

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That's terrible, I deal with issues in this area and there a few self help things you can do.

First, send a letter to the original violator specifying the infringement, stating your issues clearly and your request that they cease sale of the infringing piece immediately. Send it certified mail, return receipt.

Second, send a letter detailing your issues with the piece to the secondary businesses that you stated above stating the same thing, send it certified as well.

Use a business tone and be formal in the letters. If they don't work, then see if you can find an attorney in your area who may be willing to help. By sending the letters you are putting them on notice of the infringement and in a manner that they cannot deny easily.

George


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 Post subject: Re: Ron Cobb APC modeled by Andrew Pace
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:35 pm 
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I couldn't agree more.
I've lost count of the number of times I've been asked to provide digital hi-res copies of the Nostromo and Sulaco blueprints I did. Yeah right....
Artwork like this by guys like us takes a huge amount of effort and time to do.
A lo-res image of the LV-426 colony blueprint I put on my blog was taken and used as a background on a t-shirt.
(Just google lv-426 t shirt and you'll see it. Tossers...)
'Course, I won't tell them that it's a little inaccurate and that I'm now making small amendments on it.... :twisted:


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 Post subject: Re: Ron Cobb APC modeled by Andrew Pace
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:01 pm 
Bacon Rapscallion
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First, let me just say this. I'm sorry for dragging Jay into this in any way, shape or form. Jay is in upright guy that deserves better than to be a part of this little mess.

I called Dave Davis at BAMBAM Model Productions to ask about the production history of his APC model. I explained that Andrew designed the model that they were using to advertize their castings and that I had come up with the name. Dave said that he was sorry, because he thought that they had permission. I told him that no one had ever contacted us and that I had learned of the model from a posting at the Aliens Legacy forums.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9904&start=25

Dave volunteered the following information.

A - They created the model from a clay, 3-dimensional model made by Lou. I forget the last name that he used. When he cited the clay model I asked him why he said the following on the Starship Modeler Forums. http://www.starshipmodeler.net/talk/vie ... sc&start=0

bambamproductions wrote:
drew did it and jay our guy did the real re-work and is doing all the work all arround and you know how good they do molds,pours and 3d grows they did.


Again, he said that he had thought he had permission, but wouldn't let me speak with the person that was told to get it from us.

Note: I've confirmed that the images supplied to Mana are Andrew's art and that they bear Andrew's signature and the new 3D model was made from these references. Again, I don't blame Mana Studies for anything that transpired. The casting that they did of the model is faithful to Ron Cobb's wonderful concept and Andrew's interpretation. The casting and 3D modeling of the project are superb, and Mana deserves positive credit despite what happened. Jay was more forthright with me than I was with him at first and he has my apology and thanks.

B - On the subject of the name "M579-D10 Razorback", Dave says that one of his guys from Arkansas came up with the nickname and the numerical designation, though it exists nowhere else that I know of. You can judge for yourselves if it's zeitgeist or not.

C - His only offer in this whole business was to take down those images taken directly from Andrew's model before accusing me of trying to scam him for money and said that my approach was dishonest.

D - He said that the whole project was done by BAMBAM and Mana Studies start to finish, so I reminded him that he volunteered that 'Drew' was involved on the project and that they he had thought he had our permission, which contradicts an in house project start to finish.

I don't know if we'll chase the matter any further than to ask them to take down the images at all of the places which are using them for advertising. For my part, I feel defeated by the whole business, but I wouldn't blame anyone who still wishes to add the BAMBAM piece to their collections. After all, Ron and Andrew do beautiful work.


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 Post subject: Re: Ron Cobb APC modeled by Andrew Pace
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:16 pm 
Bacon Rapscallion
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Frontier Models has changed the status of this model to the following...

Unavailable product
This product is unavailable or temporary disabled.


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 Post subject: Re: Ron Cobb APC modeled by Andrew Pace
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:57 pm 
Bacon Rapscallion
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In the interest of being open about the whole thing, I am posting his responses and mine from the Starship Modeler site.


bambamproductions wrote:
Well,this guy has pretended to be about three people so far.
Me and called many people and said I did type stuff.
Then the editor of a magazine.
Then your brother.(andrew)


I introduced myself as William each time. I only ever mentioned Andrew as my brother. I am the editor of Monochrome Chameleon, a literary magazine that focuses on sci-fi writing and art. When I contacted Jay and told him that I was writing about the M579-D10 Razorback, I meant it. I was not forthright that the article was not my primary or even secondary reason for contacting him, and I have already apologized to Jay about that. I wasn't certain of his part in all of this, until after speaking with him. The write-up will appear in issue #6 of the Chameleon. It will contain nothing about BAMBAM or Mana Studios, but will talk about the work I did solely with my brother Andrew when interpreting Ron Cobb's design and other designs imagined by Cobb.

bambamproductions wrote:
We did this kit from the ROB design. A guy of puled your brothers pick for advertising. Now you do not own the 3d art and models we did.We grew the kit in the shop and also did this on our dime and the original design.


I won't contest the fact that you have a working model of your own as a manipulable 3D image, and the detailing of the bottom of the vehicle is entirely Jay's. However, the point was always that the images he used, that were supplied by BAMBAM to Mana, came from Andrew's interpretation of Ron Cobbs original concept.

bambamproductions wrote:
You have now threatened three websites two shops and myself.


I explained that the images they were using for advertising were used without permission and asked them to take them down.

bambamproductions wrote:
I asked about 15 times in a conversation what would you like what would you want.


And I explained that I wanted to know what happened in the development process and asked to speak to the fellow that was supposed to get our permission. My interest was never financial. It was solely intellectual.

bambamproductions wrote:
The reality is ,this is not your design or art even,the fact that you called me some many times and made bizarre threats is troubling we will make sure it does not have any of your BROTHER'S art.And your name I guess Razor bacK m5555 something but sir you have gone beyond something here ,you have made many threats, to a lot of people over soemthing that one you do not own.


The word 'threat' implies that I'm seeking some gain apart from credit where credit is due. I'm not. As I've said, I just wanted to know the who, what, where and why of what happened.

bambamproductions wrote:
One thing you did not build,conceptualize and or trade mark.
You have claimed something that is not yours it was Robs.


The original concept for the early 'APC' is Ron Cobb's. James Cameron asked Ron to develop a kind of 'hot rod' APC, but once it was realized on paper, it was determined that such a vehicle would be impractical from a financial, filming and modeling aspect, so the studio went with the APC design as it appears in the movie.


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 Post subject: Re: Ron Cobb APC modeled by Andrew Pace
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:40 am 
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Unfortunately it's a reversal technique often used by the more dishonest folks out there. Simply put they throw the blame and guilt back at you in an attempt to gain the upper hand. I've had it happen to me a couple of times; a while back someone owed me money so I called him out only for him to reply along the lines of "how dare you tell me I owe you money!".

I hope this gets sorted out in your favour.

Harry

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 Post subject: Re: Ron Cobb APC modeled by Andrew Pace
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:08 am 
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Yeah, sounds a LOT like this car lot I bought one from a while back.. The owner of the place screwed up the title (& used white out on it) and HID the fact there was a lien on the car from the people who had it last, then when I called him & said it was no good he started SCREAMING into the phone that it was MY fault the paperwork was bad & that he had no obligation to do anything.
Of course, it took getting the DA's office involved before he backed down. But in the end I did get my money back. Don't let them beat you into a corner, don't let up, and most of all, DON'T lose your cool with them.

Best of luck with it!

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 Post subject: Re: Ron Cobb APC modeled by Andrew Pace
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:25 am 
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So... years and years ago I paid top dollar for a copy of the APC blueprints. The quality was pretty poor - copy of a copy of a copy of a copy sort of a deal. Was that a shady copyright violation of the seller? I wanted the copy so bad, that I didn't care at the time.

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 Post subject: Re: Ron Cobb APC modeled by Andrew Pace
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:36 am 
Bacon Rapscallion
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AaronHorrocks wrote:
So... years and years ago I paid top dollar for a copy of the APC blueprints. The quality was pretty poor - copy of a copy of a copy of a copy sort of a deal. Was that a shady copyright violation of the seller? I wanted the copy so bad, that I didn't care at the time.


As you said, you lost a little at once because you ended up with a 'pretty poor copy of a copy of a copy'. Did the seller misrepresent that it was a copy of a copy of a copy or take credit for the work?


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 Post subject: Re: Ron Cobb APC modeled by Andrew Pace
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:58 am 
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He didn't take credit for the art work. It was a copy of the original blueprints. Just a poor one.

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 Post subject: Re: Ron Cobb APC modeled by Andrew Pace
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:01 pm 
Bacon Rapscallion
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Let me answer your question by citing an example, and since Space Jockey (Graham) is on this thread and forum, I'll use him as the example.

Graham spends hours, days, weeks and even months on some of his projects. His efforts constitute an amazing number of man hours and the lengths that he goes to just to be certain of every detail in his finished work are laudable. In short, he deserves to be compensated for his efforts and no one should be selling copies of his work without his permission. Now it could be argued that after he has sold his run of limited prints, that any copies of prints made after his money has been made are fine, but that is a decision that only Graham should be able to make. If a person wanted a print of Graham's masterful works, but couldn't afford them during a run or find anyone willing to part with one after a run, they should contact Graham himself and ask if he might purchase a less glamorous copy or a copy not printed at the scope or quality of the run, so not to under value the limited editions. Only Graham should be allowed to make a decision about the distribution of his efforts, and in the case of his work, the efforts of everyone who made suggestions, pointed out corrections and contributed to make the works possible.

I went to a convention in August. I was running an Aliens based game and a panel discussion while at the con and I contacted Graham to see if I could use his work to feature into the game and to spotlight him as an artist at the panel. He sent me high resolution images of his work to use as projected images during the presentation, so that we could capture the detail and scope. I told Graham that I would display and delete them, but he has allowed me to keep them archived. I now have them backed up on two separate drives, not only for future presentations where he could be featured, but also as an added backup of a work that should never be lost. All of this was done with Graham's permission. It's always easier to say to people that I am displaying, using or printing this image with the express permission of the artist and it allows me an opportunity to tell people about his available prints.

For my part, and when in doubt, I say you should go to the source. Besides, you'd be surprised how many great opportunities you'll have to speak to artists, authors, actors, prop-builders, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Ron Cobb APC modeled by Andrew Pace
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:18 pm 
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William; agreed.

I remember working on the Nostromo blueprints Martin Bower and Dennis Lowe were real open with the reference material and feedback and you don't know who will be willing to lend a hand, sometimes it's surprising.

There's something about digital artwork....I don't know....I remember someone had collected alien artwork images on another site as a gallery which I personally don't have too much of a problem with as after all we are a community of fans of the movies. But when all this artwork is on a site where at the bottom it says 'click here and you can turn your favorite image into a tee shirt, or coffe mug, or mouse mat'....no sir.

Good luck with this whole image business, the colony tow-truck looks ace.


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 Post subject: Re: Ron Cobb APC modeled by Andrew Pace
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:18 am 
Bacon Rapscallion
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Space Jockey wrote:
...the colony tow-truck looks ace.


Thank you. I'll pass that along to Drew.


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