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The NSC weapons use thread.
http://forum.alienslegacy.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3041		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Malikaand [ Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:11 pm ]
Post subject:  The NSC weapons use thread.
Because this topic is split off from the NSC photo thread it starts quite abruptly so the background to this discussion is that there was allegedly unauthorised weapons use at the event from members of the public (i.e. not members of the UKG or UKCM).

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Unfortunately that "Stargate family" had to be escorted off site for the weapons they were carrying around a family event!!!
Author:  Luinsar [ Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:13 pm ]
Post subject: 
What do you mean, Malika? Because they were airsoft, or because they were replicas of actual guns?
Author:  sixty [ Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
(moved back to relevant thread)
Author:  Malikaand [ Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
They were active and being used on site.
Author:  TECKNO VIKING [ Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
Didn`t the dad have a de-act Mp5?
Plus even if they were airsofters,they didn`t belong to a group & I`d be annoyed some strangers turned up to an event like that with no group affil that was sanctioned to be there.

Conventions are of course another sort of beast, as they do have the cossie events.

Jason
Author:  Malikaand [ Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
Security were called to an "incident" in the building.

I was informed of it after the event and told that one weapon was "very naughty" and one was a live Airsoft.

I will leave it to the experts to tell me what is what, but I have been to a lot of conventions and I am sure most people wouldn't fire an Airsoft in a building full of people.
Author:  Fal Bowden [ Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
The MP5 was a de-activated example with inert rounds. The lad's P90 had no rounds or battery, as per carry rules.

"Very naughty" is questionable. The work done on it was very good, but the de-act itself considering the setting was very legal.
Author:  Malikaand [ Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:21 pm ]
Post subject: 
Not what my security told me, but I bow to your better judgement.
Author:  Fal Bowden [ Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:24 pm ]
Post subject: 
I actually spoke to the two after they went and put their RIFs away. Very amiable bunch, but from a very different background as they are Living Historians (a background I myself come from).

It was unfortunate that they had not been directed to the event via the Garrison or the AL, as the father would have known that the MP5 as per carry rules for the event would have been a no-no. Any of his normal events, that would have been acceptible, and I explained the issues that could result. Also as a former pistol shooter and Army regular, he was very good with his own weapons handling. His son... less so.

The lad's P90 was a fairly cheap airsoft which I inspected personally to see what state it was in. No battery, no bbs thankfully. Pointing it at the Dalek was perhaps not the best idea, which is something I had to explain to him at length afterwards also.
Author:  Luinsar [ Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:25 pm ]
Post subject: 
Ah, I see. Fair enough.

I don't know, Jason. Aside from the guns thing of course, I think it's pretty nice that random people would show up unafraid to embrace their nerdness. After all, neither Rob nor I were affiliated with the UKCM when we came - we were simply board members.

But... this was my first event, I have no experience of such things, and wasn't really aware that there was a difference between a week-end like this and a convention proper, so... what do I know, eh? :p
Author:  TECKNO VIKING [ Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:26 pm ]
Post subject: 
Must admit if not part of a sanctioned group at an event like this,it`s Only common sense you`d see the event senior Security for permission IMHO.

Still once they had no weapons they seemed okay. The buggers though came to the AE unarmed :(
I was sooooo looking forward to stripping them of those goodies :twisted:

Not too sure what the incedent was in the main building,as I was usually Outside,Display or Green room.

Just think this sort of thing can only affect in a neg manner when common sense doesn`t present itself,as the father/son did.

Luinsar,
I wholeheartedly agree on the costume part mate. It was great to see others arrive in costume.
Just the weapons issue irritates me.

As much as I like a Good time & to fart around,replicas,de-acts you don`t,moreso in public.
It`s more ammo for those lunatics in Parlament.

Jason
Author:  Fal Bowden [ Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
TECKNO VIKING wrote:
Must admit if not part of a sanctioned group at an event like this,it`s Only common sense you`d see the event senior Security for permission IMHO.

Still once they had no weapons they seemed okay. The buggers though came to the AE unarmed :(
I was sooooo looking forward to stripping them of those goodies :twisted:

Not too sure what the incedent was in the main building,as I was usually Outside,Display or Green room.

Just think this sort of thing can only affect in a neg manner when common sense doesn`t present itself,as the father/son did.

Jason


Common sense didn't prevail in terms of pointing an airsoft P90 at a Dalek and pretending to fire. Common sense, however, has little to do with carrying a de-act MP5 in context with the father's costume. The only laws *that* infringed upon were those set on us by ourselves, and I don't see that issue as being relevant.
Author:  Luinsar [ Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
(Also, 'cause I missed it: LOL @ Sixty :mrgreen:)
Author:  TECKNO VIKING [ Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
True Pete,he wasn`t breaking the law apart from carrying in public without permission.
Though I still think Father & Son SHOULD have reported in to NSC Security to report they had weapons & leave it to their discretion.

Sorry mate we may have to disagree on this one ;)

Jason
Author:  Fal Bowden [ Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:45 pm ]
Post subject: 
TECKNO VIKING wrote:
True Pete,he wasn`t breaking the law apart from carrying in public without permission.
Though I still think Father & Son SHOULD have reported in to NSC Security to report they had weapons & leave it to their discretion.

Sorry mate we may have to disagree on this one ;)

Jason


Most probably - though the law doesn't stop you taking weapons out without permission. ASBA 2003 states that you may only carry weapons of any sort, be they de-act, RIF or perhaps even live (though naturally really, REALLY unwise) in public with 'reasonable cause'. I would say a costuming event is just cause...

Perhaps they should have done. But on the flipside, security didn't inspect any of our arms, and I find it very hypocritical to place expectations on others like us when we don't live up to them. As I said before, it would have been nice if they had shown up here or on the Garrison site, seen the rules and regs and said "hey, can we come along?".

However, they didn't - and unfortunately, it led to a bit of a mess. They'd only come to try to touch base with other like-minded people. If the lad hadn't pointed the P90 at the Dalek I doubt we would be having this conversation! :)
Author:  TECKNO VIKING [ Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
Fair points Pete :D

As for our weapons,I think that was an Honour trust by Malika & the NSC that we Policed ourselves. Also we did a Very good job of that too.
I saw NO Silly Gun Play from the UKCM at all.

If they had done this/that & the other,your right we wouldn`t be having this conversation.

As said with the way our Gov is Panic stricken at the moment to ban,heavily affact us. Just something we could do without just incase someone from the press was there to report in a Negative light.

Playing Devil`s advocate mate.

I hope the guys sign up here,though if SG fans first & foremost well they are catered for their too.

I just don`t want any "ammo" being handed to the media/Politicians so they can do there Knee Jerker they are so fond of doing,instead of tackling REAL Gun Crime.

Jason
Author:  Scapey [ Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:03 pm ]
Post subject: 
My take on it as an Airsoft site operator and UKCM member is that the legality of their actions is debatable...

Whilst it is true that they "had good reason" for carrying the RIFs ( Realistic Imitation Firearms ), they could concievably have been charged with a breach of the peace due to the fact that they had not taken the common-sense step of checking with a member of staff ( Be it Space Centre staff/security or even a UKCM / Garrison member who could have inspected the weapons for safety and gone to Malika for a judgement call on whether to allow the unaffiliated pair to carry them or not )

ASSUMING that permission would have been granted, the de-ac would still have been disallowed by the carry rules that the UKCM were asked to compose and adhere to.
The P90 would have been fine, unless it had ammunition or a battery in it. That would have rendered it unacceptable by our carry rules since it was deemed that no airsoft weapon should be capable of firing any projectile, and agreed that this should be ensured in two stages... i.e. removal of battery and emptying of magazine.

As for the Dalek... Again, it was a daft move but plenty of the rest of us pointed RIFs at Daleks, Necromongers, Stormtroopers... And the same goes for all of the above. Stormtroopers were pointing blasters at folk all weekend, Daleks were chasing kids and Necros were showing off their awesome toys to all and sundry.
The kid would have been fine if he'd only let someone know they were there, and asked permission to join in to the extent he did.

Perhaps some signage regarding clearance of weapon props would be in order for future events?
Author:  clanger68 [ Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:05 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Perhaps they should have done. But on the flipside, security didn't inspect any of our arms, and I find it very hypocritical to place expectations on others like us when we don't live up to them.


As Jason said Pete, we had a set of rules to follow that Malika and the NSC were aware of and approved.

I would have thought that the Stargate guys being, a. costumers and b. re-enactors/history students, they should have been more aware than most of the current situation regarding firearms and public.

It would have been, at the very least, a courtesy to check with the NSC on what their 'weapon' policy was.

We always do, both with the re-enactment group I belong to and the UKCM.

Times are definitely changing, we never felt the need when we were doing public events as the Exewing and that was only a couple of years ago.

Now I wouldn't dream of dressing as a Stormtrooper with a replica sterling in a public place without a lot of background work first!

Scary times,

Andy.



Andy.
Author:  Airborne Mike [ Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:07 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Looking at Terry's health bar at least you got one hit in Spat

I think that was Spat's harsh language on Terry. :lol:

Mike
Author:  TECKNO VIKING [ Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:22 pm ]
Post subject: 
Mike,

It`s Spat took a swig of Terry`s drink,it weakened him,though only slightly :D

As for the firearm part on the SG Father/Son,well hindsight is a wonderful thing & we have all offered sound comments.

I reckon it`s best left at that & maybe Malika & the NSC may take Andy`s advice for future events,asking for paying None sanctioned Site costumers to have their weapons checked.

I hope from the chatting the Father/Son were doing with some of the UKCMers,we may see them here on the board. Then they`ll have that little extra armour of knowledge we play by.

Jason
Author:  Fal Bowden [ Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:26 pm ]
Post subject: 
clanger68 wrote:
Quote:
Perhaps they should have done. But on the flipside, security didn't inspect any of our arms, and I find it very hypocritical to place expectations on others like us when we don't live up to them.


As Jason said Pete, we had a set of rules to follow that Malika and the NSC were aware of and approved.

I would have thought that the Stargate guys being, a. costumers and b. re-enactors/history students, they should have been more aware than most of the current situation regarding firearms and public.

It would have been, at the very least, a courtesy to check with the NSC on what their 'weapon' policy was.


This is very true. On the flipside, my standard for public interaction/de-act carriage is War and Peace at Beltring, which is arguably the most volatile and potentially dangerous event, for public and for re-enactors, that there is in the *world*. De-acts are perfectly acceptible and anyone with just cause may 'walk on' with their de-acts and present themselves, and without any clearance necessary.

I actually gave the 'for instance' to the father and son about a group of rather large chaps who came on site at Beltring dressed in full SAS Iranian Embassy Siege gear. They caused an absolute furor, and everyone kept asking them if something was wrong - 30+ degree heat, and wearing black overalls and NBC gear. Caused a right stink, especially since their gear was inch-perfect, including the de-act MP5s and clearance shotguns they were carrying.

While not on the same scale, I did point out that while we costumers may appreciate a very good costume... the public can be slightly unnerved, especially by stuff that is very, very 'modern' in styling. While I personally sympathised with their position, I myself made clear the position of the NSC and of the event organisers, giving a relevant example.

While I personally disagree with the harsh position taken on de-acts within our hobby, I do accept it, and I support the reasons for its emplacement. :)
Author:  Scapey [ Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:28 pm ]
Post subject: 
EVERYONE should have their weapons checked - If you're a member of a sanctioned group then you should have a designated "weapons officer" to ensure that they abide by the carry rules... And any non-affiliated costumer, if Malika allows them to carry at all, should be checked even more stringently.
Anyone breaching carry rules should lose the privelege of being able to carry a prop with their outfit for the duration of the event.

In the current political climate, common sense HAS to prevail or we all lose out.
Author:  clanger68 [ Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:31 pm ]
Post subject: 
Which just goes to prove what a sensible and responsible bunch we are! :)
Author:  Malikaand [ Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:35 pm ]
Post subject: 
Right not sure what I have started here!!!

No member of NSC was charged to inspect weapons as this was being done by Mr Curley, as per the thread pre event.

No member of the AL or UKG did anything they should not have done.

I was not in the building when the gun was fired, but I just spoken to a member of security who assures me a weapon was fired in the building and that a Marine told the Duty Manager that the gun being carried should not have been.

Both of these things were addressed and the family in question were very obliging in returning to their vehicle and securing all weapons, replica, deact, airsoft or other, in their boot.

I agree that it is nice to see people in costume attend events and I hope we shall see more of this in future. However as the flyer they had two weeks prior to the event had the AL, UKG and Harry's logos on I am sure they could have checked up on the event in advance. As it is I have returned to my desk to find a voicemail left on the Friday saying they were Stargate actors and wanted to know if I wanted to "hire" them for the event.

Here endeth the lesson :lol:
Author:  TECKNO VIKING [ Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:44 pm ]
Post subject: 
I don`t think you started anything here Malika.

It`s a bunch of friends sharing points of views that`s all.
No-one is blaming anyone.
We purely had a debate on it just now.

Same as the Banter between the UKG & UKCM,tis all in jest & Fun.

No one is peeved & plotting to take down anyone ;) :D

Now as for the father/son,well you got them in as punters so saved you money "hiring" them then :D
& as said hopefully a lesson learnt on there part.

Jason
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